From:

From: Eric Burgess [mailto:zteecher@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 7:31 PM

Subject: bombs still dropping, voices still raising

“Disturbed and powerless, but also filled with anger, we are witnessing the moral decline of the world’s only superpower, burdened by the knowledge that only one consequence of this organized madness is certain: Motivation for more terrorism is being provided, for more violence and counter-violence. Is the really the United States of America, the country we fondly remember for any number of reasons? The generous benefactor of the Marshall Plan? The forbearing instructor in the lessons of democracy? The candid self-critic? The country that once made use of the teachings of the European Enlightenment to throw off its colonial masters and to provide itself with an exemplary constitution? Is this the country that made freedom of speech an incontrovertible human right?”

--Gunter Grass, Nobel Prize Winner in Literature

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From: "Nakao, Mia" <Mia.Nakao@warnerbros.com>

Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:10 PM

Subject: RE: bombs still dropping, voices still raising

THE PERFECT GUN

The perfect gun is not visible

The perfect gun exists in a savage state

The perfect gun confers omnipotence

The perfect gun will follow the free tendencies of desire

The perfect gun its like a rosary around the neck

The perfect gun stretches as far as the eye can see

The perfect gun seeks all your reflected images

The perfect gun is sufficient unto the day

The perfect gun is nothing but a crossroads

The perfect gun keeps its promise for everyone

The perfect gun is a pill dropped in a glass of water

The perfect gun is the household crow

The perfect gun leaves in a shadow of perfumes

The perfect gun is an illusion on a surface of memory

The perfect gun is a finger resting on the controls of a broken machine

The perfect gun is too soft to be honest and too honest to be true

The perfect gun turns as it pleases toward all horizons

The perfect gun is perfect sadism, at least as a method

The perfect gun is a flower beaten by the rough fever of the wind

The perfect gun can be rearranged in all possible combinations

The perfect gun is a beautiful chimera

The perfect gun is an idealist without taking part in any ideal

The perfect gun takes the shapes and colors of demoralization and confusion

The perfect gun crouches to intercept shadows

The perfect gun is not in the habit of saluting the dead

The perfect gun will always find buyers

The perfect gun is at most a thinking reed

The perfect gun has drawn the symbol of the infinite

The perfect gun is not incompatible with a certain nobility of thought

The perfect gun is watching over a blue glass

The perfect gun writes sad and ardent love letters

The perfect gun is a hierarchy, like any other

The perfect gun is a door someone opened

The perfect gun implies that there are others behind it

The perfect gun is a dark intention

The perfect gun never waits for itself

The perfect gun is hard as the incredible hammering and no questions underneath

The perfect gun is a reference point

The perfect gun is neither my shadow, nor my double, nor my half nor another myself

The perfect gun is blood at water level

The perfect gun is half of a destiny

The perfect gun has nothing to do before dying

The perfect gun leaves an exquisite corpse

(perfect) (perfect) (perfect) (perfect) (perfect)

*MC 900 Foot Jesus

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From: “THE KID” <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: bombs still dropping, voices still raising

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:11:48 -0700

Saddam and Chirac: 30 Years of Sleaze

Wednesday, April 9, 2003 France has desperately and publicly sought a peaceful solution of the Iraqi crisis with a sole strategic goal: strong influence if not control of the world’s future leading oil reserves.

At the same time, French President Jacques Chirac has consolidated his status as heir of former President Charles De Gaulle’s policy of independence from the United States.

The Iraqi government remembered Chirac’s predecessor Francois Mitterrand’s opposition to allied action to evict Iraqi forces from Kuwait, before ultimately joining the Desert Storm coalition, and thus suspected France would eventually not use its veto power to block a second U.N. resolution. With good reason: If it were to have a stake in postwar oil developments, France must have realized it needed to be seen as a supporter of the “coalition of the willing.”

Although the veto option did not materialize, opponents of the Iraqi regime accuse France of duplicity, citing opposition to use of force against Saddam’s regime as a prime example. They see the French challenge to U.S. hegemony as propaganda for Arab consumption, in an attempt to divert attention from France’s own objectives in Iraq.

Funded by the Genocidal Maniac

Opposition leaders accuse France of freely violating international law and the U.N. charter when it comes to safeguarding its interests and argue that Paris’ opposition to war was solely to avert its good friend and client Saddam Hussein’s ouster.

They point to a quarter of a century of such close relations that Baghdad generously contributed to Chirac’s election campaigns and made annual donations to the Gaullist Rassemblement Pour La Republique political party, founded by Chirac.

They cite mutual public declarations of admiration made by the two leaders during Chirac’s 1975 trip to Baghdad as prime minister, a visit that ushered in the golden age in French-Iraqi relations.

Shortly thereafter, France provided financial and technical assistance for the Ozirak, Iraq’s first nuclear reactor. Israel eventually bombed the Ozirak, keeping Saddam from having a nuclear offensive capability during the Gulf War in 1990-91. At the time, Chirac’s critics called him “Jacques Ozirak,” much as now U.S. commentators have taken to referring to the French president as “Jacques Iraq.”

Follow the Money, Oil, Weapons ...

After Chirac’s 1975 visit, Iraq became the leading buyer of French arms, as well as France’s main oil supplier. In fact from 1980 until Iraq’s 1990 invasion of Kuwait, exports to Iraq and Saudi Arabia accounted for 75 percent of France’s total arms sales, with the United States eventually taking the lead in Saudi Arabia.

The situation has been further complicated by a struggle between France and Russia over commercial dominance in Iraq.

France was strongly criticized by Baghdad last year when it agreed to the U.N. imposing “smart sanctions” against Iraq. At the time, the Iraqi newspaper Babel, run by Saddam’s eldest son Uday, warned France its stance endangered French oil “interests and privileges” in Iraq.

France’s leading oil company, Total Elf, which has held exclusive negotiating rights for the huge Majnoun and Bin Omar oil fields, was about to sign new contracts late last year, prior to the Iraqi oil minister being dismissed for canceling contracts with Russia.

Stifling the Opposition

In a bid to recoup its position, the Chirac regime has been the sole major European country refusing to receive Iraqi opposition leaders or hold official discussions with them.

Thus the diplomatic dilemma for Jacques Chirac: Having viewed French interests better served with a friendly Saddam Hussein in power, he has rightly feared the U.S.-led coalition would topple the Iraqi despot.

And with good reason.

Analysis by Hussain Hindawi, a native Iraqi historian, humanitarian and journalist who is editor of UPI’s Arabic News Service, and John R.

Thomson, who has been involved in the Middle East since 1966 as businessman, diplomat and journalist.

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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 23:35:06 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez” <jvasque8@yahoo.com>

Subject: i shout america

dear sir,

please take me off of your diatribes. i cannot afford to be shaken with anger every time i read your self serving opinions that lack reason and turn a blind eye to your own complicity to saddam’s (and other dictators’) atrocities. to claim a moral high ground in regards to this war is naive at best . . . at worst, it is evil. saddam is a jerk (by jerk i mean horrible dictator who kills many of his own people in various ways that would make attilla blush). ok, you got me. but answer this question: what do you call those who support the jerk? who sell him arms? who, as in the case of stormin norman, allowed for the baath party to use their helicopters to suppress the revolt after the 1991 war (he did it, by his own acknowledgement, research the recent frontline documentary in which he acknowledges as much). i love this country, i also recognize its wrongs. i know i am complicit since i pay taxes. but i want change. what the hell do you want? to prove your manliness by killing hypothetical threats to hypothetical families?

do you advocate killing off all those who, like me, are of color? i ask this because if you do the math, i am a threat to most americans. i am of a broken home.

i was latchkey kid. i am and have been treated as an outsider. i don’t fit in, nor do i want to. i have weird ideas. i am middle class. i have access to fire arms. i am dylan klebold. i am kip kipling. i am zacharias massoui. i am mohammad atta. i am saddam hussein. i am pancho villa. (this is all extended metaphor for those of you who may be lost.) my stance on the war is similar to those children who have to tell their parents (or at times, vice versa) that their behavior sucks and needs to change before something bad happens. how many times are you going to let the power drunk us imperialistic monkey drive drunk? we made it through iraq, should we try syria next? stop the war, stop the violence, stop the ignorance. those men and women who have died have added to the tragic tale of mankind: we are too stupid to act upon what we have learned, too smart to ignore the lure of power. i take back what i said . . . keep emailing me. let me know what the other side thinks. i will shout my truth over your rooftops! i am you and you are me. consider me, the next time you look in the mirror. realize that you are constructed of the other, the self never has existed. you are a caricature of an archetype, as am i. where does that leave us? no where? maybe we should figure out where we are before telling others where they are. thank you jack. you keep me honest.

joe

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From: "THE KID" <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: bombs still dropping, voices still raising

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:21:36 -0700

Self Defense Quiz...

Question: You’re walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot.

You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

_____

Liberal Answer:

Well, that’s not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think?

What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he’d be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

____

Conservative Answer:

BANG!

____

Texan’s Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

BANG! BANG! BANG! click...

(sounds of clip being ejected and fresh clip installed) Wife: “Sweetheart, he looks like he’s still moving, did either of you kids see that?” Son: “Mom’s right Dad, I saw it too...”

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

BANG! BANG! BANG!

Daughter: “Nice grouping Daddy!”

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From: Eric Burgess [mailto:zteecher@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, April 10, 2003 6:20 AM

Subject: bombs still dropping, voices still raising

American "Self-Defense" Quiz:

Question: You're breaking into a house with your wife and two children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking dark-skinned man with a huge knife that you sold him comes around his corner and is running at you while screaming obsenities. In your hand is a "smart glock .40" and you are an expert shot. The media has been informed by the government that you have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

Conservative Answer:

Booooooom!!!! (then you drape an American flag over the guy's body and proclaim his family liberated)

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--- Joseph Vasquez <jvasque8@yahoo.com wrote:

dear sir,

do you advocate killing off all those who, like me, are of color? i ask this because if you do the math, i am a threat to most americans. i am of a broken home. i was latchkey kid. i am and have been treated as an outsider. i don’t fit in, nor do i want to. i have weird ideas. i am middle class. i have access to fire arms. i am dylan klebold. i am kip kipling. i am zacharias massoui. i am mohammad atta. i am saddam hussein. i am pancho villa. (this is all extended metaphor for those of you who may be lost.) my stance on the war is similar to those children who have to tell their parents (or at times, vice versa) that their behavior sucks and needs to change before something bad happens. how many times are you going to let the power drunk us imperialistic monkey drive drunk? we made it through iraq, should we try syria next? stop the war, stop the violence, stop the ignorance. those men and women who have died have added to the tragic tale of mankind: we are too stupid to act upon what we have learned, too smart to ignore the lure of power. i take back what i said . . .

keep emailing me. let me know what the other side thinks.

i will shout my truth over your rooftops! i am you and you are me. consider me, the next time you look in the mirror. realize that you are constructed of the other, the self never has existed. you are a caricature of an archetype, as am i. where does that leave us? no where? maybe we should figure out where we are before telling others where they are. thank you jack. you keep me honest.

joe

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From: “THE KID” <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: i shout america

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:11:46 -0700

Wow Joey, you really put me in my place! How will I ever sleep tonight?

You really think you have it all figured out, don’t you? A man of color?

Big Deal I’m Mexican too, along with being Sicilian too. So stop with your self serving “I’m a latchkey kid” So what? So was I and I had both parents.

I am this, I am that, whatever dude. Nike already made that dumb commercial. You say so much but say nothing at all.

YOU are the Poster Child for being a Caricature of an Archetype and you don’t even know it, but yet YOU have it all figured it out so you can tell us where we are right? But of course you’re a Liberal Democrat who always knows what’s best for everyone else because they don’t know any better and if they don’t agree with you, then their wrong.

Where the hell do you guy’s come up with this stuff? Do they have “Liberal Drama” classes now, teaching you how to be a suffering drama queen?

Consider you the next time I look in the mirror? Are you kidding me?

Maybe I will the next time I see one of those “Colored” people on the streets or when I just look at my own family. But then I’m sure you’ll tell me your

I was treated as an outsider... whine whine whine, here’s some cheese to go with that. Just make your point and stop already with your “Woe is Me” crap. You think you’re the only one with a sob story? That it makes your convoluted self righteous ideology better than everyone else’s?

Well of course you do, you’re a Liberal Democrat. What was I thinking?

And I’d prefer to be in the car with the “Power Drunk Imperialistic Monkey” (I swear, where do you come up with this stuff? It’s classic Iraqi!) because unlike you and your brethren who are now starting to sound like the “Iraqi Minister of Information” I’m on the side of the home team (USA), the same home team that you continually try smear and put down (except when Clinton was President, because then you guy’s were so quiet you could hear a mouse piss on a piece of cotton). Which is your right to, but when 80% of the country doesn’t feel the same way you do, you guy’s go into your Iraqi Minister of Info. rap and what you don’t know is that it’s just too funny, and you don’t even know it.

But get use to it because it’s going to be like this through the year 2008.

I’ve never met you before Joey and I’ll have to ask Eric about this but has anyone seen you and the “Iraqi Minister of Info.” in a room together at the same time?

BTW Eric, You know my Glock is a “Mini Glock 40.” Did you get Joey/Iraqi Minister of Info. to re-write that joke for you?

and let me know what time you want to do lunch on Saturday and where you want to go, as long as it’s after 1pm.

Jack

What happened? that little joke hit a little to close to home?

The liberation of all those people who are actually thanking us making you feel bad? Are you mad because now all your rooftop shoutings are being mocked?

I guess even Self Righteous Pundits like yourself can’t even put a liberal spin on video images.

Oh yeah, but what about the 100+ deaths of our troops you’ll start screaming about? Well considering all of the missions flown and fought unfortunate as that may be, it’s a lot less than many of the unbiased liberal media predicted by at least thousands.

But then again that’s about the same amount that died in that tragic fire during that Great White concert that I’m sure all of you had a chuckle over...

You remember that joke, Famous Last words, Ring a bell? “Hey let’s go to a Great White Concert”

Yeah, real funny, You guy’s are a riot!

You can put all the quotes you want from all the bitter, dead, alcoholic writers, philosophers or whoever, one of these day’s you might realize that your liberal philosophy will not protect this country... ever!

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:21:40 -0700 (PDT)

From: "diana khuu” <strangelyfeelingfine@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: i shout america

Just wondering while rambling around at Pomona College. . .

What kind of world will be left for me when everyone else is done with it? When all the world leaders finsh launching their armies to make war in the name of peace, when everyone realizes that killing is the same regardless of the cause, and when the world comes to know that humanity is essential to our survival, what will be left for young people like me? Will I be able to do everything that I dream and aspire to do, or will I suffer the consequences of decisions made by people who never even knew I existed. And in that case, will I even want to be a part of this world?

Just like the people of Iraq, what will happen to the young people of world - the future!?!- who have lost their voices?

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:47:24 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez” <jvasque8@yahoo.com>

Subject: yes diana, there is a santa claus

diana,

you will have a world that is hopefully just as flawed as it has always been. the world leaders and their minions who cheer on war and victory have always been around. the resistance to such behavior has also been a constant. however, if you remember 1984, there is reason to fear. you say that you fear the loss of freedom and liken yourself to the iraqi people . . .

you may not be far from the truth. but we are at least able to do something about it. you and your generation will definitely be able to do something about it. in 2004, there will be a second election for bush II. all those opposed to his imperialistic ways should vote against him. and despite what jaques has said, i am not a liberal democrat. if one’s political affiliation is of any import in matters of reason, i am a green.

just remember, all you young people on this list, beware those who bluster. beware those who do not answer the questions you pose to them. emerson once wrote (and i paraphrase) that the scholar serves as the eyes and heart of humanity. your questions suggest that you understand this concept. the problem that many face is that their heart tells them the world is wrong, but their ambition convinces them that the world can stay the same so long as financial happiness is accessible. one must learn to choose between the two. i do not believe that i hold any answers, as was suggested by jaques, i never said i did. but i do see a problem, like you do diana. i want to find an answer that makes sense and does not perpetuate the ills of the world. i do not ask for sympathy (so save your damn cheese), i only ask that people keep asking questions. some may say that if our leaders (democrats, republicans, greens, etc.) asked more questions before acting, nothing would get done. is that so bad? maybe if the treaty of versailles was questioned more, hitler would have never appealed to the german working man and therefore never have come to power. maybe if roosevelt asked better questions, japanese americans would not have been interred. there are too many maybes to reflect upon. why is that?

could it be that the human race has relied to heavily upon the simplest manner of settling disputes? you are right to question whether you will want to be part of the world. well, young hamlet(a), of course you do.

life can be beautiful, and it can be dark, but once you are dead, you’re dead. who knows what dreams may come? i guess i should end this here. push on. fight the power. damn the man.

joe

(i know joey, joey is a friend of mine, you, sir, may not call me joey) btw: i, unlike the iraqi propaganda minister, speak only for myself. and yet, when i look in the mirror, i see him, and jaques, and diana, and myself. does anyone else?

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From: “THE KID” <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: i shout america

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:44:56 -0700

A large group of Iraqi soldiers are moving down a road when they hear a voice call from behind a sand dune. “One Army Soldier is better than ten Iraqis!”

The Iraqi commander quickly sends 10 of his best soldiers over the dune, where upon a gun battle breaks and continues for a few minutes, then silence..

The voice then calls out “One Army Soldier is better than one hundred Iraqis!” Furious, the Iraqi commander sends his next best 100 troops over the dune and instantly a huge firefight commences. After 10 minutes of battle, again silence.

The American voice calls out again “One Army Soldier is better than one thousand Iraqis!”

The enraged Iraqi Commander musters one thousand fighters and sends them across the dune. Cannons, rockets and machine guns ring out as a huge battle is fought. Then silence.

Eventually one wounded Iraqi fighter crawls back over the dune and with his dying words tells his commander, “Don’t send any more men, it’s a trap.

There’s two of them!”

Knock yourself out with that one Eric! LOL

Here you go Joey, a big fat one right over the middle of the plate.

You can commiserate with your fellow believers in our “Un Biased” media. I hope it helps you get out of bed each morning knowing that you live in such a wretched imperialistic country that everyone hates and that they agree with you.

Well you know what? That might be true, but you know what? Now they’ll think twice about ever “F’ing” with us again. Because now they know that if they even think about doing anything to us, we have a President who will make them suffer the consequences of their actions rather than one who just goes through the motions in order to take our attention away from his reckless scandals corruption going on at the same time.

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:07:39 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez” <jvasque8@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: i shout america

thank you dr. strangelove!

i remember a nation that demanded absolute loyalty. do you? they taught europe that their army was the most powerful. remember that one? they were hated, but had support around the globe from various areas of society, including prominent americans. remember these guys? they were defeated when many thought the opposition was too weak and ill prepared. they were nazis. sieg heil, herr jaques!

george bush ubber alles! is that what you want? a world based upon pure darwinism? if that’s the case, i guess we really aren’t that removed from the apes. i am actually starting to see the appeal of creationism.

if we were sprung straight from the head of a benevolent god, maybe we’d be more like him/her. alas, with 80% of the nation behind the war, i see little evidence to support that notion. we are beasts after all. as to my disdain for the imperialistic country i live in, remember, this was once a nation so racist it sold people based on the color of their skin. those who opposed that were villified much as you do me. is that where you stand? i have faith in you jaques. i await a thought provoking repsonse. i have read prowar arguements couched in reason. just not from you. you can do it, put your back in to it! :)

joe

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From: “THE KID” <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: yes diana, there is a santa claus

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:04:04 -0700

I’m a Victim, nobody likes me, Boo Hoo Hoo, Gloom Gloom Gloom, Misery Misery Misery, Nice try Joey but you do think you know it all, your thinly veiled attempt to say otherwise is once again on par with the Iraqi Minister of Information.

Why are you always the Victim Joey? Let’s talk, how did you come to the point in your life where it went so bad? That this country is so bad and we’re the only country that is? that even though 80% of the people feel otherwise they’re still wrong in your eyes and always will be until they agree with you? How it must feel to be so sanctimonious all the time.

No wonder you’re so miserable.

And as far as scholars go who cares what Waldo said?, what is it with all of these poets, authors or philosophers dead or alive who were either out of their minds or bitter alcoholics that all of you are constantly quoting and giving so much credence to their words? these people and their quotes are irrelevant except to you guy’s who make those words your anthems. Just tell me who said “We support our troops, as long as they shoot their officers” I’m just curious about that one.

And yes Eric, I do understand what the significance of these quotes or ramblings mean when you’re trying to make your points. It’s just that, that’s all you guy’s do is quote these people whenever you feel the need to explain why you hate the United States on any given day.

You “Scholars” (Serve as the Eyes and Heart of Humanity? Spare Me...) think so much of yourselves, even though I only have a lowly 12th grade education and that in your eyes I’m sure it places me so far below you on the intellectual scale, so I should listen to you and think you know it all?

All you so called scholars come from an insular world of so called higher education who before you graduated from high school couldn’t tell the difference between your butt or a hole in the ground until you went to college and your burned out college teachers or professors got a hold of you and who because of their tenure never had to worry about venturing out into the real world where real things happen, or had to worry about whatever they said because they couldn’t be fired (that so called teacher who wished we suffered a million Mogadishu’s comes to mind), started filling your heads with all of their nonsense and personal beliefs (Blame the USA for EVERYTHING Wah Wah Wah) from their less than productive lives that you so easily accepted and made your own just because they are these so called “Scholars” who know more than people like myself who actually didn’t like Catcher in the Rye GASP!!! and could care less whatever the hell J.D.

Salinger was trying to say in that so called American classic. Big Deal, my life has really suffered because of it.

I’m just a normal working schlub, I’m an insurance salesman and I work with my father who owns his own business it’s not the most exciting work there is, but it pays very well. And that’s it. Nothing more and nothing less.

But because I’m blessed to make a very good living more so than some other people, I don’t look down my nose at them as being anything less than I am because I do. I have over 2200 clients who are of all different beliefs, races, sexual orientation and economic classes and their all treated the same. A lot of them actually ask me to write out their check because they cannot spell properly or some don’t even know how to count.

But you know what? Even though most of those people have very little if any education, they still have pride and dignity. They still have common sense to understand things and have their own opinions on issues, and it’s called Common Sense. And because of this great country they came to and are grateful to live in, with the little education that some of them have, some of them make more money than all of us combined because they were afforded the opportunity to do so here unlike the countries they are from (What a terrible country we are!)

And that’s where all you “Pseudo Mensas” fail to understand how it is that 80% of the U.S. doesn’t fall in line with your Brilliant way of thinking.

They don’t need anybody to tell them what’s best for them, because only they know what that is, and if that means it’s not the same way as yours, too bad. They nor I need any of you to tell us that even though we feel and think the way we do that it is wrong because you say it is and then have you impugn those feelings or beliefs once you realize we’re not going to fall in line with your way of thinking... sieg heil, herr Joey!

Don’t even attempt to tell me that you don’t look down your nose at those whose inferior intellect doesn’t come close to yours. Your saying that because since you don’t believe in “God” that the 80% who have the nerve not to believe the same way you do probably did come from apes, how arrogant is that? That’s how myopic you are in your views, and that’s why you’ll never get it... Ever!

Joey, you don’t even realize how pretentious that quote from old Waldo is do you? And that’s exactly why you can’t figure out why 80% of the people don’t feel like you do and you never will, so then you have to equate them with the apes, nice touch Joey, how Liberal of you...

As for you Diana, take it one day at a time. Make up your own mind, form your own opinions and just because those opinions or thoughts might not be that of your peers or the majority, and because of them you might be ostracized, so be it! Only you know what’s best for Diana, period.

Whatever fears or worries you have about your future or our country’s future or that of your future family, just know that as an American we have to do what’s best for Americans and that’s what we’re doing now. You can believe what Joey believes about this country or what I believe about this country, but whatever it is make sure that it’s what you believe whatever side you go to.

I have never followed the status quo whether it was in high school, any of my jobs or in my belief in God or Politics. I consider my self a conservative, I am a republican, but if a republican was for something I wasn’t I wouldn’t vote for him just because he is a republican. As you can tell I’m not too popular in this on going debate, I’m sure the e mails are filling up Eric’s mail box daily about who I am and where I come from not to mention the ridicule I’m sure I’m getting, (am I close Eric? LOL) but I don’t care. There comes a time where rhetoric and words will not suffice and you have to make a stand for what you believe and come out fighting without worrying about if you’re going to be liked just because you had the nerve to stand up or speak out about what you believe especially when you’re the minority.

There is a bigger picture to all of what is happening now, before you jump on either bandwagon just give it time and you’ll see. If you want to bash this country you live in, that is your right to as a citizen, just make sure that’s how you really feel and that you weren’t influenced by anyone else who feels you should, media included. And if you feel otherwise, then stand up and say so, and don’t worry about those who might mock you because you do.

Unlike Joey and the majority I have always been proud to be an American, you would think that we were the only country to ever do anything bad in the last two centuries. Why is it that everyone wants to live here, work here go to school here? Did we deserve to have 9/11 happen to us? I don’t think so, but most of these people do because we have been a terrorist country since 1899. Do you believe that?

They said we would lose badly, we would put ourselves in jeopardy by going to war and inviting terrorists to attack us again. And it might happen, but then it might not, and like I said earlier, we now have a President who has shown these cowards what we are capable of and what we will do if this were to happen again. Are we the big bullies of the block? Yes we are, and in today’s times we have to be. Will I be vilified by that statement?

You bet I will, Joey’s already watering at the mouth ready to jump on that one.

But you know what? is it not the truth?

When we have France, Germany and Russia doing everything in there power to stop us from liberating Iraq because they have sweetheart deals with them (oil at 40% below market value, Arms contracts etc etc) and then they have the nerve to judge us and say we are evil for what we are doing. Yet it’s only to hide their shady deals and protect their interests? Yet when we try to do the same we’re the bad guy’s? So tell me Diana, who’s interests are you more concerned about protecting? and now they have the audacity to say now they’re glad that we have liberated Iraq and want to have a major role in the rebuilding of Iraq when not one drop of blood from any of their people was shed in that liberation? They stab us in the back and then ask for the knives back.

All these so called pundits are now doing everything they can to spin this despicable outcome of what they thought would be a horrific mess and ultimately the fall of George Bush and it’s killing them that it hasn’t.

They’re going to start digging deeper for things to find fault with what we did and their going to throw it against the wall and whatever sticks, will be the new agenda. But unfortunately for them, 80% of the U.S. knows otherwise along with all those Iraqi’s who seemed genuinely happy Saddam is gone, but I’m sure Ted Koppel will find that one in a million who say’s he wishes the Americans never did this.

Death is never a good thing in any circumstance, but if that means that some men and women are willing to sacrifice their lives whether you believe it’s right or wrong then you need to respect their decision to do that for you whether you asked for it or not. Sometimes it is necessary to go to war no matter what anyone say’s, and I’m going to be blasted for that too. But it is, and those troops of ours who have lost their lives knew that and beloved that no matter what anyone else is saying. That’s why we have the freedom to say what we want, that’s why we aren’t oppressed like many of the other countries are, that’s why people are clamoring to live in this great country.

But you know what Diana? If you don’t feel that way and you came to that conclusion not because anybody on this list or the media or a politician changed your mind and it was your final conclusion after looking over all the facts from both sides, then more power to you! and your entitled to that and I can truthfully respect that. But if you don’t and you believe America is right in doing what we are doing and you don’t stand up for that belief because your afraid of what others with different beliefs will think, then those who throughout the years have given their life in order for you to believe one way or the other meant nothing.

OK Joey... Batter Up!

Jack

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:07:46 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez” <jvasque8@yahoo.com>

Subject: he coulda been a contender

why bother? you lack the reasoning of a nine year old.

“i’m just a working schlub, a high school grad, etc.” give it a rest. there are plenty of working people with sound opinions based on more than hate and jealousy. yes, you hate me. i am “unamerican” you say?

listen, i am for free speech, free elections, free expression and free dissention. that’s america baby, love it or leave it. you’re jealous because others made you feel inferior. yes, it’s quite obvious that you feel that we who oppose your view do so out of some left wing conspiracy against the red white and blue. when i attack your views, i attack the views, not you. you see fit to do otherwise. so what? my constant appeals to a sense of unity does not move you. my reflections upon the works of others is pretentious. my hope for this country is contrary to the will of 80% of its inhabitants (one of whom is my father and i can speak with him without falling into the name calling game). oh well. you clearly have no idea what i’ve been saying, not due to lack of intelligence but because you’re so set on being a loudmouth radio talk show goon. fine. do it. in the end, you just aren’t getting it. too bad, the passion you spew could have made you a great man, instead, you’re just a kid. by the way, i know i am name calling, so don’t call me a hypocrite.

joe

p.s. if anyone shares jaques’ views and wants to communicate them, please do. i originally joined this to talk to people and hear their views, especially those who oppose mine.

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:18:25 -0700

Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

From: “THE KID” <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Joey Joey Joey you Hypocrite.

Hate? Jealousy? where did that come from? Is you arrogance making you think I’m jealous of you?

You’re a funny little man Joey.

I guess because I lack the reasoning of a nine year old I won’t be be able to reason with you any longer, so being that I’m a loud mouth radio goon, you’re a real pisser dude with some MAJOR ISSUES.

So why bother? I only entertained you nonsense because you think you’re so damn smart and funny, and your neither (you want funny? Brian is funny). You are a bitter little person who is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black and then has the nerve to say “I know I am name calling, so don’t call me a hypocrite.”

Then you try to end it by making it look like you’re taking the higher road “You could have been a great man but instead...” once again your attempt to aggrandize yourself has failed miserably and you don’t even know it.

So instead of why bother?

Just don’t bother...

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:17:43 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez” <jvasque8@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

you’ve proven my point. thank you.

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:27:17 -0700

Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

From: “THE KID” <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Your Welcome.

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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:08:32 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez” <jvasque8@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

so tell me something: why didn’t you like catcher in the rye? why do you hate salinger? i ask this because i am creating a test for a class on the novel and i would like to know your objections.

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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 02:09:45 -0700

Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

From: “THE KID” <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Sure, When I first read it in the fourth grade in 1974 (I use to be in this program since 2nd grade they use to have called “MGM” Mentally Gifted Minors, Big deal I know) I don’t even think that the phrase “Teenage Angst” was even thought of, I couldn’t figure out what the hell he was so pissed off and frustrated about. But being 9 years old at the time I wouldn’t have known anyways.

In junior High I tried again and it made a little more sense. But it didn’t do anything for me. Then in high school when all that went down with john lennon being killed and the attempt on Reagan’s life I read it again but this time all the hype this book caused fueled my interest even more.

but once again it meant nothing to me, I wasn’t frustrated and couldn’t relate to Holden’s bitter outlook on life. he was nasty, sarcastic and completely unlikable as a protagonist. so what if he doesn’t give a crap? He’s like every other teenager going through high school trials but not yet an adult whose fear of adulthood has him mocking the working man who has an office job making money like the rest of the “Phonies” when he was just a snot nosed kid who was still in high school (it’s been over 20 years so I’m kind of sketchy about the book) I was a student with a 3.5 gpa in a private school who did what he had to do who got good grades and would have never have been expelled from school and then in order to deal with it “Take a Vacation” to New York, Please...

I didn’t have time for a book by an author who set out to make it controversial, which he did, but I don’t feel it should be classified as an american classic.

This author uses a teenage protagonist to vent his frustrations in life making this kid seem like he has it all figured out, when actually its a man who while writing this was probably thinking, “If I knew then what i know now things would be different” No kidding! It would be like that for all of us don’t you think?

I know everyone is just smitten with this book and that they all think that because J.D. uses Holden to make people think that it’s ok to be a shitty person, it’s not. but then he turns out to be nuts but there is nothing noble in being a cynical insane bastard and that your criticisms of anything are not invalid and nothing you say or think is so bad that you need to repress it. That is utterly ridiculous to me.

And I think many celebrities are learning that is not true. Sure say what you want, but remember that with whatever you say comes responsibility even more so when you’re platform to say these things has a bigger audience than the guy next to you does. Meaning celebrities, politicians and teachers.

And after all that happened in 80 and 81 it only fueled the so called “Mystique” and every celebrity and wanna be writer started walking around with a paperback copy of it extensively underlined in their pocket telling everyone how cool it was, (e.g. Johnny Depp) Whatever.

Was it holden who was actually going insane? Or is it society which has lost it’s mind for failing to see the hopelessness of their own lives? Give me a break! It’s a lonely recluse of a man who read too much Freud trying to provoke the reader to think that this novel is a fascinating and enlightening description of our human condition.

YAAAAAWN...

I just find it unfortunate that it’s being pushed on these school children as just that. Because these kids that are going through the typical teenage angst as it were and are at a very impressionable age and need to figure things out for themselves with the help of course of an authority figure and their parents. Not by some book that is more or less giving them a license to be disrespectful in society because it’s an american classic. Remember It’s a grown man who is a recluse with his own demons and bitter outlook on life who wrote this book and used a teenage protagonist, but yet people actually think Holden is an actual person.

So there you have it.

Just let me clarify the obvious, I am not as well read as say Eric or even you are. Out of all those books that Eric has in his house, I’ve probably read 5 of them. and 3 of them were about the “Doors.”

Regardless of what you think, I am not jealous of those with an education, I was offered a full scholarship to USC when I graduated but chose not to go because my priorities at the time were women, partying, working, and women and I just didn’t feel like going to school anymore.

but I did go to “Harvard on the Hill” (Rio Hondo Jr college) for about 3 semesters and that proved to me that I really didn’t want to go to school anymore, besides i had many friends who went to USC and UCLA so I could party with them. This was 1984 and with the olympics here and making the money I was at the time with my father it was a blast... but I digress. I just don’t like those that do have every degree under the sun looking down their noses at those who don’t and feel that because they have those degrees they are superior, that’s all.

Joe, how this will help you at all in creating a test for your students is beyond me. How can anything be right or wrong? if you have students like I was they may get it but won’t necessarily agree and then I’m sure you will have the Johnny Rebel who will have a light bulb go off in his head and relate his life to it, but once again this is a grown man using a teenager as the protagonist.

And that to me disqualifies this as an american classic because if Salinger just wrote a story about a boy named holden as a narrator describing what he is going through and why instead of making it seem like a teenager came to these enlightened descriptions of the human condition on his own (which aren’t enlightening to me to begin with as far as i’m concerned) which most teenagers haven’t and probably won’t for some time is ridiculous. I bet if he would have wrote it as a novel about an adult in his 30’s, it probably would have made it to the dollar book bin in less than a month.

Talk about being cynical huh? But you asked!

I guess I’ll just never understand why this is such a great book.

So now I will gracefully step down from my lectern and go to bed.

But before I do... Dude, don’t get so bent out of shape over these animated discussions we’ve been having, because that’s all they are.

No need to lose any sleep, it’s just two people discussing a number of topics they can’t seem to agree on and nothing more. Now if you start bring out the “Your Momma” smack... well then it’s on, but until then, as “Jake” said to “Farmer Ted” “Relax!” (I’ll wait to see if you can get that obscure quote from that particular movie)

Late

Jack

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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:55:47 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez” <jvasque8@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

interesting take, the new yorker made a similar observation about a year ago. one point i would like to argue is that holden’s angst stems from his desire to care for everything and every one. he wants to be the catcher in the rye, god on earth. salinger, the deranged author as you put it (i paraphrase), does indeed put this adult notion into the head of a child, but that is because his audience was made up of primarily adults. although, as you suggest, some teens do feel as holden does without ever reading the book.

to read this novel in the fourth grade was a mistake, but to dismiss it seems also to dismiss american culture. holden’s “vacation” is actually attempted suicide. you may not agree with holden’s outlook, but try reading it again and look for holden within yourself. think about it, you are holden (rejection of academia for worldly pleasures, attitude that others are not true individuals such as yourself). i have the habit of looking for a universality in people. i know that goes against american individualism, but the fact that every american wants to be an individual suggests a certain uniformity. it is interesting that you feel overly educated people look down their noses at “uneducated” folk. i know plenty of snobs who lack a high school diploma and many phd holders who never speak of their achievements. snobbery knows no class boundaries. besides being a fan of john hughes films, what else interests you and what would you call an american classic? does an american classic have to appeal to all, or should we censor nasty and otherwise distasteful art to maintain a cheery outlook on life?

how happy can a guy be who feels others are out to make him inferior? anyhow, thanks. for the info.

joe

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From: “THE KID” <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:21:26 -0700

Nice try Joe, but a psychoanalyst you’re not. You should keep your day job.

Holden

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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:30:00 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez” <jvasque8@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

maybe not, but that wasn’t my aim. anyhow, all of us should consider this point made by matt miller (host of left right and center): the military being used and cheered by the neo-cons was created in the past decade by . . . . bill clinton. it was during the clinton years that the military was scaled down and made more technologically oriented. bush and company claimed that clinton’s policies demoralized the armed forces.

they seem pretty happy right now. maybe michael moore was right to call him the best republican president ever. please don’t get me wrong, i am not a huge fan of clinton, but like miller, i believe in giving credit where credit is due.

joe

p.s. why do we allow non-citizens to fight for the country, but make it nearly impossible for them to gain citizenship?

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From: “Brian Day” <therealslimbrian@hotmail.com

Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:52:58 -0700

Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you’ll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, and how my friends were occupied with e-mail “discussions,” and all that Arnold Jackson kind of crap, but I don’t feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth. In the first place, this stuff bores me, and in the second place, my friends Joe/Eric and Jack would have about two hemorrhages apiece if I told anything pretty personal about them. They’re quite touchy about anything like that, especially Jack. They’re nice and all—I’m not saying that—but they’re also touchy as hell. Besides, I’m not going to tell you about my whole goddam political bent or anything. I’ll just tell you about this madman stuff that happened to us around last month just before we got pretty run-down and stopped checking our in-boxes to take it easy. I mean that’s all I told E.B. about, and he’s my friend and all. He’s pretty liberal.

That isn’t too far from my crumby politics, and he comes over and visits my classroom practically every weekday. He’s going to drive me around when I get laid off next month maybe. He just got a Hybrid. One of those little Honda jobs that can do around 50 miles an hour. Anyway, one time when we were in the men’s room way the hell down in the other wing, E.B. asked me what I thought about all this stuff we seem to effortlessly delete now. I didn’t know what the hell to say. If you want the truth, I don’t know what I think about it. I’m sorry I forwarded so many people about it. About all I know is, I sort of miss everybody I forwarded about. Even old Dick Winters and Villasenor, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Jack. It’s funny. Don’t ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody.

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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:17:56 -0700

Subject: Re: he coulda been a contender

From: “Richard Winters” <jdrudge@earthlink.net>

Hey, who are you calling “old?” You’re too young to call me old. I’m the only one old enough to call me old, so there. Besides, I’m doing my part for the budget, I’m retiring. God, I feel old.

Old Dick Winters (Hey, it has a nice ring to it)

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