From:
Eric Burgess [mailto:zteecher@yahoo.com]
Sent:
Monday, April 07, 2003 7:31 PM
Subject:
bombs still dropping, voices still raising
“Disturbed
and powerless, but also filled with anger, we are witnessing the moral decline
of the world’s only superpower, burdened by the knowledge that only one
consequence of this organized madness is certain: Motivation for more terrorism
is being provided, for more violence and counter-violence. Is the really the
United States of America, the country we fondly remember for any number of
reasons? The generous benefactor of the Marshall Plan? The forbearing
instructor in the lessons of democracy? The candid self-critic? The country
that once made use of the teachings of the European Enlightenment to throw off
its colonial masters and to provide itself with an exemplary constitution? Is
this the country that made freedom of speech an incontrovertible human
right?”
--Gunter Grass, Nobel Prize
Winner in Literature
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
"Nakao, Mia" <Mia.Nakao@warnerbros.com>
Sent:
Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject:
RE: bombs still dropping, voices still raising
THE
PERFECT GUN
The
perfect gun is not visible
The
perfect gun exists in a savage state
The
perfect gun confers omnipotence
The
perfect gun will follow the free tendencies of desire
The
perfect gun its like a rosary around the neck
The
perfect gun stretches as far as the eye can see
The
perfect gun seeks all your reflected images
The
perfect gun is sufficient unto the day
The
perfect gun is nothing but a crossroads
The
perfect gun keeps its promise for everyone
The
perfect gun is a pill dropped in a glass of water
The
perfect gun is the household crow
The
perfect gun leaves in a shadow of perfumes
The
perfect gun is an illusion on a surface of memory
The
perfect gun is a finger resting on the controls of a broken machine
The
perfect gun is too soft to be honest and too honest to be true
The
perfect gun turns as it pleases toward all horizons
The
perfect gun is perfect sadism, at least as a method
The
perfect gun is a flower beaten by the rough fever of the wind
The
perfect gun can be rearranged in all possible combinations
The
perfect gun is a beautiful chimera
The
perfect gun is an idealist without taking part in any ideal
The
perfect gun takes the shapes and colors of demoralization and confusion
The
perfect gun crouches to intercept shadows
The
perfect gun is not in the habit of saluting the dead
The
perfect gun will always find buyers
The
perfect gun is at most a thinking reed
The
perfect gun has drawn the symbol of the infinite
The
perfect gun is not incompatible with a certain nobility of thought
The
perfect gun is watching over a blue glass
The
perfect gun writes sad and ardent love letters
The
perfect gun is a hierarchy, like any other
The
perfect gun is a door someone opened
The
perfect gun implies that there are others behind it
The
perfect gun is a dark intention
The
perfect gun never waits for itself
The
perfect gun is hard as the incredible hammering and no questions underneath
The
perfect gun is a reference point
The
perfect gun is neither my shadow, nor my double, nor my half nor another myself
The
perfect gun is blood at water level
The
perfect gun is half of a destiny
The
perfect gun has nothing to do before dying
The
perfect gun leaves an exquisite corpse
(perfect)
(perfect) (perfect) (perfect) (perfect)
*MC
900 Foot Jesus
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: “THE KID”
<the-kid@sbcglobal.net>
Subject:
Re: bombs still dropping, voices still raising
Date:
Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:11:48 -0700
Saddam
and Chirac: 30 Years of Sleaze
Wednesday,
April 9, 2003 France has desperately and publicly sought a peaceful solution of
the Iraqi crisis with a sole strategic goal: strong influence if not control of
the world’s future leading oil reserves.
At
the same time, French President Jacques Chirac has consolidated his status as
heir of former President Charles De Gaulle’s policy of independence from
the United States.
The
Iraqi government remembered Chirac’s predecessor Francois
Mitterrand’s opposition to allied action to evict Iraqi forces from
Kuwait, before ultimately joining the Desert Storm coalition, and thus
suspected France would eventually not use its veto power to block a second U.N.
resolution. With good reason: If it were to have a stake in postwar oil
developments, France must have realized it needed to be seen as a supporter of
the “coalition of the willing.”
Although
the veto option did not materialize, opponents of the Iraqi regime accuse
France of duplicity, citing opposition to use of force against Saddam’s
regime as a prime example. They see the French challenge to U.S. hegemony as
propaganda for Arab consumption, in an attempt to divert attention from
France’s own objectives in Iraq.
Funded
by the Genocidal Maniac
Opposition
leaders accuse France of freely violating international law and the U.N.
charter when it comes to safeguarding its interests and argue that Paris’
opposition to war was solely to avert its good friend and client Saddam
Hussein’s ouster.
They
point to a quarter of a century of such close relations that Baghdad generously
contributed to Chirac’s election campaigns and made annual donations to
the Gaullist Rassemblement Pour La Republique political party, founded by
Chirac.
They
cite mutual public declarations of admiration made by the two leaders during
Chirac’s 1975 trip to Baghdad as prime minister, a visit that ushered in
the golden age in French-Iraqi relations.
Shortly
thereafter, France provided financial and technical assistance for the Ozirak,
Iraq’s first nuclear reactor. Israel eventually bombed the Ozirak,
keeping Saddam from having a nuclear offensive capability during the Gulf War
in 1990-91. At the time, Chirac’s critics called him “Jacques
Ozirak,” much as now U.S. commentators have taken to referring to the
French president as “Jacques Iraq.”
Follow
the Money, Oil, Weapons ...
After
Chirac’s 1975 visit, Iraq became the leading buyer of French arms, as
well as France’s main oil supplier. In fact from 1980 until Iraq’s
1990 invasion of Kuwait, exports to Iraq and Saudi Arabia accounted for 75
percent of France’s total arms sales, with the United States eventually
taking the lead in Saudi Arabia.
The
situation has been further complicated by a struggle between France and Russia
over commercial dominance in Iraq.
France
was strongly criticized by Baghdad last year when it agreed to the U.N.
imposing “smart sanctions” against Iraq. At the time, the Iraqi
newspaper Babel, run by Saddam’s eldest son Uday, warned France its
stance endangered French oil “interests and privileges” in Iraq.
France’s
leading oil company, Total Elf, which has held exclusive negotiating rights for
the huge Majnoun and Bin Omar oil fields, was about to sign new contracts late
last year, prior to the Iraqi oil minister being dismissed for canceling
contracts with Russia.
Stifling
the Opposition
In a
bid to recoup its position, the Chirac regime has been the sole major European
country refusing to receive Iraqi opposition leaders or hold official
discussions with them.
Thus
the diplomatic dilemma for Jacques Chirac: Having viewed French interests
better served with a friendly Saddam Hussein in power, he has rightly feared
the U.S.-led coalition would topple the Iraqi despot.
And
with good reason.
Analysis
by Hussain Hindawi, a native Iraqi historian, humanitarian and journalist who
is editor of UPI’s Arabic News Service, and John R.
Thomson,
who has been involved in the Middle East since 1966 as businessman, diplomat
and journalist.
Copyright
2003 by United Press International
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 23:35:06 -0700
(PDT)
From: "Joseph Vasquez”
<jvasque8@yahoo.com>
Subject: i
shout america
dear
sir,
please
take me off of your diatribes. i cannot afford to be shaken with anger every
time i read your self serving opinions that lack reason and turn a blind eye to
your own complicity to saddam’s (and other dictators’) atrocities.
to claim a moral high ground in regards to this war is naive at best . . . at
worst, it is evil. saddam is a jerk (by jerk i mean horrible dictator who kills
many of his own people in various ways that would make attilla blush). ok, you
got me. but answer this question: what do you call those who support the jerk?
who sell him arms? who, as in the case of stormin norman, allowed for the baath
party to use their helicopters to suppress the revolt after the 1991 war (he
did it, by his own acknowledgement, research the recent frontline documentary
in which he acknowledges as much). i love this country, i also recognize its
wrongs. i know i am complicit since i pay taxes. but i want change. what the
hell do you want? to prove your manliness by killing hypothetical threats to
hypothetical families?
do
you advocate killing off all those who, like me, are of color? i ask this
because if you do the math, i am a threat to most americans. i am of a broken
home.
i
was latchkey kid. i am and have been treated as an outsider. i don’t fit
in, nor do i want to. i have weird ideas. i am middle class. i have access to
fire arms. i am dylan klebold. i am kip kipling. i am zacharias massoui. i am
mohammad atta. i am saddam hussein. i am pancho villa. (this is all extended
metaphor for those of you who may be lost.) my stance on the war is similar to
those children who have to tell their parents (or at times, vice versa) that
their behavior sucks and needs to change before something bad happens. how many
times are you going to let the power drunk us imperialistic monkey drive drunk?
we made it through iraq, should we try syria next? stop the war, stop the
violence, stop the ignorance. those men and women who have died have added to
the tragic tale of mankind: we are too stupid to act upon what we have learned,
too smart to ignore the lure of power. i take back what i said . . . keep
emailing me. let me know what the other side thinks. i will shout my truth over
your rooftops! i am you and you are me. consider me, the next time you look in
the mirror. realize that you are constructed of the other, the self never has
existed. you are a caricature of an archetype, as am i. where does that leave
us? no where? maybe we should figure out where we are before telling others
where they are. thank you jack. you keep me honest.
joe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "THE KID"
<the-kid@sbcglobal.net>
Subject:
Re: bombs still dropping, voices still raising
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:21:36 -0700
Self Defense
Quiz...
Question:
You’re walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small
children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the
corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a
Glock .40 and you are an expert shot.
You have mere
seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?
_____
Liberal Answer:
Well,
that’s not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look
poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to
attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think?
What about the
kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his
hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he’d be
happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just
be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my
family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to
debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.
____
Conservative
Answer:
BANG!
____
Texan’s
Answer:
BANG! BANG!
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
BANG! BANG!
BANG! click...
(sounds of clip
being ejected and fresh clip installed) Wife: “Sweetheart, he looks like
he’s still moving, did either of you kids see that?” Son:
“Mom’s right Dad, I saw it too...”
BANG! BANG!
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
BANG! BANG!
BANG!
Daughter:
“Nice grouping Daddy!”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
Eric Burgess [mailto:zteecher@yahoo.com]
Sent:
Monday, April 10, 2003 6:20 AM
Subject:
bombs still dropping, voices still raising
American
"Self-Defense" Quiz:
Question: You're
breaking into a house with your wife and two children. Suddenly, a dangerous
looking dark-skinned man with a huge knife that you sold him comes around his
corner and is running at you while screaming obsenities. In your hand is a
"smart glock .40" and you are an expert shot. The media has been
informed by the government that you have mere seconds before he reaches you and
your family. What do you do?
Conservative
Answer:
Booooooom!!!!
(then you drape an American flag over the guy's body and proclaim his family
liberated)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Joseph
Vasquez <jvasque8@yahoo.com
wrote:
dear sir,
please take me off of your diatribes. i
cannot afford to be shaken with anger every time i read your self serving
opinions that lack reason and turn a blind eye to your own complicity to
saddam’s (and other dictators’) atrocities. to claim a moral high
ground in regards to this war is naive at best . . . at worst, it is evil.
saddam is a jerk (by jerk i mean horrible dictator who kills many of his own
people in various ways that would make attilla blush). ok, you got me. but
answer this question: what do you call those who support the jerk? who sell him
arms? who, as in the case of stormin norman, allowed for the baath party to use
their helicopters to suppress the revolt after the 1991 war (he did it, by his
own acknowledgement, research the recent frontline documentary in which he
acknowledges as much). i love this country, i also recognize its wrongs. i know
i am complicit since i pay taxes. but i want change. what the hell do you want?
to prove your manliness by killing hypothetical threats to hypothetical
families?
do you advocate
killing off all those who, like me, are of color? i ask this because if you do
the math, i am a threat to most americans. i am of a broken home. i was
latchkey kid. i am and have been treated as an outsider. i don’t fit in,
nor do i want to. i have weird ideas. i am middle class. i have access to fire
arms. i am dylan klebold. i am kip kipling. i am zacharias massoui. i am
mohammad atta. i am saddam hussein. i am pancho villa. (this is all extended
metaphor for those of you who may be lost.) my stance on the war is similar to
those children who have to tell their parents (or at times, vice versa) that
their behavior sucks and needs to change before something bad happens. how many
times are you going to let the power drunk us imperialistic monkey drive drunk?
we made it through iraq, should we try syria next? stop the war, stop the
violence, stop the ignorance. those men and women who have died have added to
the tragic tale of mankind: we are too stupid to act upon what we have learned,
too smart to ignore the lure of power. i take back what i said . . .
keep emailing
me. let me know what the other side thinks.
i will shout my
truth over your rooftops! i am you and you are me. consider me, the next time
you look in the mirror. realize that you are constructed of the other, the self
never has existed. you are a caricature of an archetype, as am i. where does
that leave us? no where? maybe we should figure out where we are before telling
others where they are. thank you jack. you keep me honest.
joe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: “THE KID”
<the-kid@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:
i shout america
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:11:46 -0700
Wow Joey, you
really put me in my place! How will I ever sleep tonight?
You really think
you have it all figured out, don’t you? A man of color?
Big Deal
I’m Mexican too, along with being Sicilian too. So stop with your self
serving “I’m a latchkey kid” So what? So was I and I had both
parents.
I am this, I am
that, whatever dude. Nike already made that dumb commercial. You say so much
but say nothing at all.
YOU are the
Poster Child for being a Caricature of an Archetype and you don’t even
know it, but yet YOU have it all figured it out so you can tell us where we are
right? But of course you’re a Liberal Democrat who always knows
what’s best for everyone else because they don’t know any better
and if they don’t agree with you, then their wrong.
Where the hell
do you guy’s come up with this stuff? Do they have “Liberal
Drama” classes now, teaching you how to be a suffering drama queen?
Consider you the
next time I look in the mirror? Are you kidding me?
Maybe I will the
next time I see one of those “Colored” people on the streets or
when I just look at my own family. But then I’m sure you’ll tell me
your
I was treated as
an outsider... whine whine whine, here’s some cheese to go with that.
Just make your point and stop already with your “Woe is Me” crap.
You think you’re the only one with a sob story? That it makes your
convoluted self righteous ideology better than everyone else’s?
Well of course
you do, you’re a Liberal Democrat. What was I thinking?
And I’d
prefer to be in the car with the “Power Drunk Imperialistic Monkey”
(I swear, where do you come up with this stuff? It’s classic Iraqi!)
because unlike you and your brethren who are now starting to sound like the
“Iraqi Minister of Information” I’m on the side of the home
team (USA), the same home team that you continually try smear and put down (except
when Clinton was President, because then you guy’s were so quiet you
could hear a mouse piss on a piece of cotton). Which is your right to, but when
80% of the country doesn’t feel the same way you do, you guy’s go
into your Iraqi Minister of Info. rap and what you don’t know is that
it’s just too funny, and you don’t even know it.
But get use to
it because it’s going to be like this through the year 2008.
I’ve never
met you before Joey and I’ll have to ask Eric about this but has anyone
seen you and the “Iraqi Minister of Info.” in a room together at
the same time?
BTW Eric, You
know my Glock is a “Mini Glock 40.” Did you get Joey/Iraqi Minister
of Info. to re-write that joke for you?
and let me know
what time you want to do lunch on Saturday and where you want to go, as long as
it’s after 1pm.
Jack
What happened?
that little joke hit a little to close to home?
The liberation
of all those people who are actually thanking us making you feel bad? Are you
mad because now all your rooftop shoutings are being mocked?
I guess even
Self Righteous Pundits like yourself can’t even put a liberal spin on
video images.
Oh yeah, but
what about the 100+ deaths of our troops you’ll start screaming about?
Well considering all of the missions flown and fought unfortunate as that may
be, it’s a lot less than many of the unbiased liberal media predicted by
at least thousands.
But then again
that’s about the same amount that died in that tragic fire during that
Great White concert that I’m sure all of you had a chuckle over...
You remember
that joke, Famous Last words, Ring a bell? “Hey let’s go to a Great
White Concert”
Yeah, real
funny, You guy’s are a riot!
You can put all
the quotes you want from all the bitter, dead, alcoholic writers, philosophers
or whoever, one of these day’s you might realize that your liberal
philosophy will not protect this country... ever!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:21:40 -0700
(PDT)
From: "diana khuu” <strangelyfeelingfine@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
i shout america
Just wondering
while rambling around at Pomona College. . .
What kind of
world will be left for me when everyone else is done with it? When all the
world leaders finsh launching their armies to make war in the name of peace,
when everyone realizes that killing is the same regardless of the cause, and
when the world comes to know that humanity is essential to our survival, what
will be left for young people like me? Will I be able to do everything that I dream
and aspire to do, or will I suffer the consequences of decisions made by people
who never even knew I existed. And in that case, will I even want to be a part
of this world?
Just like the
people of Iraq, what will happen to the young people of world - the future!?!-
who have lost their voices?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:47:24 -0700
(PDT)
From: "Joseph Vasquez”
<jvasque8@yahoo.com>
Subject: yes
diana, there is a santa claus
diana,
you will have a
world that is hopefully just as flawed as it has always been. the world leaders
and their minions who cheer on war and victory have always been around. the
resistance to such behavior has also been a constant. however, if you remember
1984, there is reason to fear. you say that you fear the loss of freedom and
liken yourself to the iraqi people . . .
you may not be
far from the truth. but we are at least able to do something about it. you and
your generation will definitely be able to do something about it. in 2004,
there will be a second election for bush II. all those opposed to his
imperialistic ways should vote against him. and despite what jaques has said, i
am not a liberal democrat. if one’s political affiliation is of any
import in matters of reason, i am a green.
just remember,
all you young people on this list, beware those who bluster. beware those who
do not answer the questions you pose to them. emerson once wrote (and i
paraphrase) that the scholar serves as the eyes and heart of humanity. your
questions suggest that you understand this concept. the problem that many face
is that their heart tells them the world is wrong, but their ambition convinces
them that the world can stay the same so long as financial happiness is
accessible. one must learn to choose between the two. i do not believe that i
hold any answers, as was suggested by jaques, i never said i did. but i do see
a problem, like you do diana. i want to find an answer that makes sense and
does not perpetuate the ills of the world. i do not ask for sympathy (so save
your damn cheese), i only ask that people keep asking questions. some may say
that if our leaders (democrats, republicans, greens, etc.) asked more questions
before acting, nothing would get done. is that so bad? maybe if the treaty of
versailles was questioned more, hitler would have never appealed to the german
working man and therefore never have come to power. maybe if roosevelt asked
better questions, japanese americans would not have been interred. there are
too many maybes to reflect upon. why is that?
could it be that
the human race has relied to heavily upon the simplest manner of settling
disputes? you are right to question whether you will want to be part of the
world. well, young hamlet(a), of course you do.
life can be
beautiful, and it can be dark, but once you are dead, you’re dead. who
knows what dreams may come? i guess i should end this here. push on. fight the
power. damn the man.
joe
(i know joey,
joey is a friend of mine, you, sir, may not call me joey) btw: i, unlike the
iraqi propaganda minister, speak only for myself. and yet, when i look in the
mirror, i see him, and jaques, and diana, and myself. does anyone else?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: “THE KID”
<the-kid@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:
i shout america
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:44:56 -0700
A large group of
Iraqi soldiers are moving down a road when they hear a voice call from behind a
sand dune. “One Army Soldier is better than ten Iraqis!”
The Iraqi
commander quickly sends 10 of his best soldiers over the dune, where upon a gun
battle breaks and continues for a few minutes, then silence..
The voice then
calls out “One Army Soldier is better than one hundred Iraqis!”
Furious, the Iraqi commander sends his next best 100 troops over the dune and
instantly a huge firefight commences. After 10 minutes of battle, again
silence.
The American
voice calls out again “One Army Soldier is better than one thousand
Iraqis!”
The enraged
Iraqi Commander musters one thousand fighters and sends them across the dune.
Cannons, rockets and machine guns ring out as a huge battle is fought. Then
silence.
Eventually one
wounded Iraqi fighter crawls back over the dune and with his dying words tells
his commander, “Don’t send any more men, it’s a trap.
There’s
two of them!”
Knock yourself
out with that one Eric! LOL
Here you go
Joey, a big fat one right over the middle of the plate.
You can
commiserate with your fellow believers in our “Un Biased” media. I
hope it helps you get out of bed each morning knowing that you live in such a
wretched imperialistic country that everyone hates and that they agree with
you.
Well you know
what? That might be true, but you know what? Now they’ll think twice
about ever “F’ing” with us again. Because now they know that
if they even think about doing anything to us, we have a President who will
make them suffer the consequences of their actions rather than one who just
goes through the motions in order to take our attention away from his reckless
scandals corruption going on at the same time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:07:39 -0700
(PDT)
From: "Joseph Vasquez”
<jvasque8@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
i shout america
thank you dr.
strangelove!
i remember a
nation that demanded absolute loyalty. do you? they taught europe that their
army was the most powerful. remember that one? they were hated, but had support
around the globe from various areas of society, including prominent americans.
remember these guys? they were defeated when many thought the opposition was
too weak and ill prepared. they were nazis. sieg heil, herr jaques!
george bush ubber
alles! is that what you want? a world based upon pure darwinism? if
that’s the case, i guess we really aren’t that removed from the
apes. i am actually starting to see the appeal of creationism.
if we were
sprung straight from the head of a benevolent god, maybe we’d be more
like him/her. alas, with 80% of the nation behind the war, i see little
evidence to support that notion. we are beasts after all. as to my disdain for
the imperialistic country i live in, remember, this was once a nation so racist
it sold people based on the color of their skin. those who opposed that were
villified much as you do me. is that where you stand? i have faith in you
jaques. i await a thought provoking repsonse. i have read prowar arguements
couched in reason. just not from you. you can do it, put your back in to it! :)
joe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: “THE KID”
<the-kid@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:
yes diana, there is a santa claus
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:04:04 -0700
I’m a
Victim, nobody likes me, Boo Hoo Hoo, Gloom Gloom Gloom, Misery Misery Misery,
Nice try Joey but you do think you know it all, your thinly veiled attempt to
say otherwise is once again on par with the Iraqi Minister of Information.
Why are you
always the Victim Joey? Let’s talk, how did you come to the point in your
life where it went so bad? That this country is so bad and we’re the only
country that is? that even though 80% of the people feel otherwise
they’re still wrong in your eyes and always will be until they agree with
you? How it must feel to be so sanctimonious all the time.
No wonder
you’re so miserable.
And as far as
scholars go who cares what Waldo said?, what is it with all of these poets,
authors or philosophers dead or alive who were either out of their minds or
bitter alcoholics that all of you are constantly quoting and giving so much
credence to their words? these people and their quotes are irrelevant except to
you guy’s who make those words your anthems. Just tell me who said
“We support our troops, as long as they shoot their officers”
I’m just curious about that one.
And yes Eric, I
do understand what the significance of these quotes or ramblings mean when
you’re trying to make your points. It’s just that, that’s all
you guy’s do is quote these people whenever you feel the need to explain
why you hate the United States on any given day.
You
“Scholars” (Serve as the Eyes and Heart of Humanity? Spare Me...)
think so much of yourselves, even though I only have a lowly 12th grade
education and that in your eyes I’m sure it places me so far below you on
the intellectual scale, so I should listen to you and think you know it all?
All you so
called scholars come from an insular world of so called higher education who
before you graduated from high school couldn’t tell the difference
between your butt or a hole in the ground until you went to college and your
burned out college teachers or professors got a hold of you and who because of
their tenure never had to worry about venturing out into the real world where
real things happen, or had to worry about whatever they said because they
couldn’t be fired (that so called teacher who wished we suffered a
million Mogadishu’s comes to mind), started filling your heads with all
of their nonsense and personal beliefs (Blame the USA for EVERYTHING Wah Wah
Wah) from their less than productive lives that you so easily accepted and made
your own just because they are these so called “Scholars” who know
more than people like myself who actually didn’t like Catcher in the Rye
GASP!!! and could care less whatever the hell J.D.
Salinger was
trying to say in that so called American classic. Big Deal, my life has really
suffered because of it.
I’m just a
normal working schlub, I’m an insurance salesman and I work with my
father who owns his own business it’s not the most exciting work there
is, but it pays very well. And that’s it. Nothing more and nothing less.
But because
I’m blessed to make a very good living more so than some other people, I
don’t look down my nose at them as being anything less than I am because
I do. I have over 2200 clients who are of all different beliefs, races, sexual
orientation and economic classes and their all treated the same. A lot of them
actually ask me to write out their check because they cannot spell properly or
some don’t even know how to count.
But you know
what? Even though most of those people have very little if any education, they
still have pride and dignity. They still have common sense to understand things
and have their own opinions on issues, and it’s called Common Sense. And
because of this great country they came to and are grateful to live in, with
the little education that some of them have, some of them make more money than
all of us combined because they were afforded the opportunity to do so here
unlike the countries they are from (What a terrible country we are!)
And that’s
where all you “Pseudo Mensas” fail to understand how it is that 80%
of the U.S. doesn’t fall in line with your Brilliant way of thinking.
They don’t
need anybody to tell them what’s best for them, because only they know
what that is, and if that means it’s not the same way as yours, too bad.
They nor I need any of you to tell us that even though we feel and think the
way we do that it is wrong because you say it is and then have you impugn those
feelings or beliefs once you realize we’re not going to fall in line with
your way of thinking... sieg heil, herr Joey!
Don’t even
attempt to tell me that you don’t look down your nose at those whose
inferior intellect doesn’t come close to yours. Your saying that because
since you don’t believe in “God” that the 80% who have the
nerve not to believe the same way you do probably did come from apes, how
arrogant is that? That’s how myopic you are in your views, and
that’s why you’ll never get it... Ever!
Joey, you
don’t even realize how pretentious that quote from old Waldo is do you?
And that’s exactly why you can’t figure out why 80% of the people
don’t feel like you do and you never will, so then you have to equate
them with the apes, nice touch Joey, how Liberal of you...
As for you
Diana, take it one day at a time. Make up your own mind, form your own opinions
and just because those opinions or thoughts might not be that of your peers or
the majority, and because of them you might be ostracized, so be it! Only you
know what’s best for Diana, period.
Whatever fears
or worries you have about your future or our country’s future or that of
your future family, just know that as an American we have to do what’s
best for Americans and that’s what we’re doing now. You can believe
what Joey believes about this country or what I believe about this country, but
whatever it is make sure that it’s what you believe whatever side you go
to.
I have never
followed the status quo whether it was in high school, any of my jobs or in my
belief in God or Politics. I consider my self a conservative, I am a
republican, but if a republican was for something I wasn’t I
wouldn’t vote for him just because he is a republican. As you can tell
I’m not too popular in this on going debate, I’m sure the e mails
are filling up Eric’s mail box daily about who I am and where I come from
not to mention the ridicule I’m sure I’m getting, (am I close Eric?
LOL) but I don’t care. There comes a time where rhetoric and words will
not suffice and you have to make a stand for what you believe and come out
fighting without worrying about if you’re going to be liked just because
you had the nerve to stand up or speak out about what you believe especially
when you’re the minority.
There is a
bigger picture to all of what is happening now, before you jump on either
bandwagon just give it time and you’ll see. If you want to bash this
country you live in, that is your right to as a citizen, just make sure
that’s how you really feel and that you weren’t influenced by
anyone else who feels you should, media included. And if you feel otherwise,
then stand up and say so, and don’t worry about those who might mock you
because you do.
Unlike Joey and
the majority I have always been proud to be an American, you would think that
we were the only country to ever do anything bad in the last two centuries. Why
is it that everyone wants to live here, work here go to school here? Did we deserve
to have 9/11 happen to us? I don’t think so, but most of these people do
because we have been a terrorist country since 1899. Do you believe that?
They said we
would lose badly, we would put ourselves in jeopardy by going to war and
inviting terrorists to attack us again. And it might happen, but then it might
not, and like I said earlier, we now have a President who has shown these
cowards what we are capable of and what we will do if this were to happen
again. Are we the big bullies of the block? Yes we are, and in today’s
times we have to be. Will I be vilified by that statement?
You bet I will,
Joey’s already watering at the mouth ready to jump on that one.
But you know
what? is it not the truth?
When we have
France, Germany and Russia doing everything in there power to stop us from
liberating Iraq because they have sweetheart deals with them (oil at 40% below
market value, Arms contracts etc etc) and then they have the nerve to judge us
and say we are evil for what we are doing. Yet it’s only to hide their
shady deals and protect their interests? Yet when we try to do the same
we’re the bad guy’s? So tell me Diana, who’s interests are
you more concerned about protecting? and now they have the audacity to say now
they’re glad that we have liberated Iraq and want to have a major role in
the rebuilding of Iraq when not one drop of blood from any of their people was
shed in that liberation? They stab us in the back and then ask for the knives
back.
All these so
called pundits are now doing everything they can to spin this despicable
outcome of what they thought would be a horrific mess and ultimately the fall
of George Bush and it’s killing them that it hasn’t.
They’re
going to start digging deeper for things to find fault with what we did and
their going to throw it against the wall and whatever sticks, will be the new
agenda. But unfortunately for them, 80% of the U.S. knows otherwise along with
all those Iraqi’s who seemed genuinely happy Saddam is gone, but
I’m sure Ted Koppel will find that one in a million who say’s he
wishes the Americans never did this.
Death is never a
good thing in any circumstance, but if that means that some men and women are
willing to sacrifice their lives whether you believe it’s right or wrong
then you need to respect their decision to do that for you whether you asked
for it or not. Sometimes it is necessary to go to war no matter what anyone
say’s, and I’m going to be blasted for that too. But it is, and
those troops of ours who have lost their lives knew that and beloved that no
matter what anyone else is saying. That’s why we have the freedom to say
what we want, that’s why we aren’t oppressed like many of the other
countries are, that’s why people are clamoring to live in this great
country.
But you know
what Diana? If you don’t feel that way and you came to that conclusion
not because anybody on this list or the media or a politician changed your mind
and it was your final conclusion after looking over all the facts from both
sides, then more power to you! and your entitled to that and I can truthfully
respect that. But if you don’t and you believe America is right in doing
what we are doing and you don’t stand up for that belief because your
afraid of what others with different beliefs will think, then those who throughout
the years have given their life in order for you to believe one way or the
other meant nothing.
OK Joey...
Batter Up!
Jack
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:07:46 -0700
(PDT)
From: "Joseph Vasquez”
<jvasque8@yahoo.com>
Subject: he
coulda been a contender
why bother? you
lack the reasoning of a nine year old.
“i’m
just a working schlub, a high school grad, etc.” give it a rest. there
are plenty of working people with sound opinions based on more than hate and
jealousy. yes, you hate me. i am “unamerican” you say?
listen, i am for
free speech, free elections, free expression and free dissention. that’s
america baby, love it or leave it. you’re jealous because others made you
feel inferior. yes, it’s quite obvious that you feel that we who oppose
your view do so out of some left wing conspiracy against the red white and
blue. when i attack your views, i attack the views, not you. you see fit to do
otherwise. so what? my constant appeals to a sense of unity does not move you.
my reflections upon the works of others is pretentious. my hope for this
country is contrary to the will of 80% of its inhabitants (one of whom is my
father and i can speak with him without falling into the name calling game). oh
well. you clearly have no idea what i’ve been saying, not due to lack of
intelligence but because you’re so set on being a loudmouth radio talk
show goon. fine. do it. in the end, you just aren’t getting it. too bad, the
passion you spew could have made you a great man, instead, you’re just a
kid. by the way, i know i am name calling, so don’t call me a hypocrite.
joe
p.s. if anyone shares jaques’
views and wants to communicate them, please do. i originally joined this to
talk to people and hear their views, especially those who oppose mine.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:18:25 -0700
Subject: Re: he
coulda been a contender
From: “THE KID”
<the-kid@sbcglobal.net>
Joey Joey Joey
you Hypocrite.
Hate? Jealousy?
where did that come from? Is you arrogance making you think I’m jealous
of you?
You’re a
funny little man Joey.
I guess because
I lack the reasoning of a nine year old I won’t be be able to reason with
you any longer, so being that I’m a loud mouth radio goon, you’re a
real pisser dude with some MAJOR ISSUES.
So why bother? I
only entertained you nonsense because you think you’re so damn smart and
funny, and your neither (you want funny? Brian is funny). You are a bitter
little person who is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black and
then has the nerve to say “I know I am name calling, so don’t call
me a hypocrite.”
Then you try to
end it by making it look like you’re taking the higher road “You
could have been a great man but instead...” once again your attempt to
aggrandize yourself has failed miserably and you don’t even know it.
So instead of
why bother?
Just don’t
bother...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:17:43 -0700
(PDT)
From: "Joseph Vasquez”
<jvasque8@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
he coulda been a contender
you’ve
proven my point. thank you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:27:17 -0700
Subject: Re:
he coulda been a contender
From: “THE KID”
<the-kid@sbcglobal.net>
Your Welcome.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:08:32 -0700
(PDT)
From: "Joseph Vasquez”
<jvasque8@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
he coulda been a contender
so tell me
something: why didn’t you like catcher in the rye? why do you hate salinger?
i ask this because i am creating a test for a class on the novel and i would
like to know your objections.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 02:09:45 -0700
Subject: Re:
he coulda been a contender
From: “THE
KID” <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>
Sure, When I
first read it in the fourth grade in 1974 (I use to be in this program since
2nd grade they use to have called “MGM” Mentally Gifted Minors, Big
deal I know) I don’t even think that the phrase “Teenage
Angst” was even thought of, I couldn’t figure out what the hell he
was so pissed off and frustrated about. But being 9 years old at the time I
wouldn’t have known anyways.
In junior High I
tried again and it made a little more sense. But it didn’t do anything
for me. Then in high school when all that went down with john lennon being
killed and the attempt on Reagan’s life I read it again but this time all
the hype this book caused fueled my interest even more.
but once again
it meant nothing to me, I wasn’t frustrated and couldn’t relate to
Holden’s bitter outlook on life. he was nasty, sarcastic and completely
unlikable as a protagonist. so what if he doesn’t give a crap? He’s
like every other teenager going through high school trials but not yet an adult
whose fear of adulthood has him mocking the working man who has an office job
making money like the rest of the “Phonies” when he was just a snot
nosed kid who was still in high school (it’s been over 20 years so
I’m kind of sketchy about the book) I was a student with a 3.5 gpa in a
private school who did what he had to do who got good grades and would have
never have been expelled from school and then in order to deal with it
“Take a Vacation” to New York, Please...
I didn’t
have time for a book by an author who set out to make it controversial, which
he did, but I don’t feel it should be classified as an american classic.
This author uses
a teenage protagonist to vent his frustrations in life making this kid seem
like he has it all figured out, when actually its a man who while writing this
was probably thinking, “If I knew then what i know now things would be
different” No kidding! It would be like that for all of us don’t
you think?
I know everyone
is just smitten with this book and that they all think that because J.D. uses
Holden to make people think that it’s ok to be a shitty person,
it’s not. but then he turns out to be nuts but there is nothing noble in
being a cynical insane bastard and that your criticisms of anything are not
invalid and nothing you say or think is so bad that you need to repress it.
That is utterly ridiculous to me.
And I think many
celebrities are learning that is not true. Sure say what you want, but remember
that with whatever you say comes responsibility even more so when you’re
platform to say these things has a bigger audience than the guy next to you
does. Meaning celebrities, politicians and teachers.
And after all
that happened in 80 and 81 it only fueled the so called “Mystique”
and every celebrity and wanna be writer started walking around with a paperback
copy of it extensively underlined in their pocket telling everyone how cool it
was, (e.g. Johnny Depp) Whatever.
Was it holden
who was actually going insane? Or is it society which has lost it’s mind
for failing to see the hopelessness of their own lives? Give me a break!
It’s a lonely recluse of a man who read too much Freud trying to provoke
the reader to think that this novel is a fascinating and enlightening description
of our human condition.
YAAAAAWN...
I just find it
unfortunate that it’s being pushed on these school children as just that.
Because these kids that are going through the typical teenage angst as it were
and are at a very impressionable age and need to figure things out for
themselves with the help of course of an authority figure and their parents.
Not by some book that is more or less giving them a license to be disrespectful
in society because it’s an american classic. Remember It’s a grown
man who is a recluse with his own demons and bitter outlook on life who wrote
this book and used a teenage protagonist, but yet people actually think Holden
is an actual person.
So there you
have it.
Just let me
clarify the obvious, I am not as well read as say Eric or even you are. Out of
all those books that Eric has in his house, I’ve probably read 5 of them.
and 3 of them were about the “Doors.”
Regardless of
what you think, I am not jealous of those with an education, I was offered a
full scholarship to USC when I graduated but chose not to go because my
priorities at the time were women, partying, working, and women and I just
didn’t feel like going to school anymore.
but I did go to
“Harvard on the Hill” (Rio Hondo Jr college) for about 3 semesters
and that proved to me that I really didn’t want to go to school anymore,
besides i had many friends who went to USC and UCLA so I could party with them.
This was 1984 and with the olympics here and making the money I was at the time
with my father it was a blast... but I digress. I just don’t like those
that do have every degree under the sun looking down their noses at those who
don’t and feel that because they have those degrees they are superior,
that’s all.
Joe, how this
will help you at all in creating a test for your students is beyond me. How can
anything be right or wrong? if you have students like I was they may get it but
won’t necessarily agree and then I’m sure you will have the Johnny
Rebel who will have a light bulb go off in his head and relate his life to it,
but once again this is a grown man using a teenager as the protagonist.
And that to me
disqualifies this as an american classic because if Salinger just wrote a story
about a boy named holden as a narrator describing what he is going through and
why instead of making it seem like a teenager came to these enlightened
descriptions of the human condition on his own (which aren’t enlightening
to me to begin with as far as i’m concerned) which most teenagers
haven’t and probably won’t for some time is ridiculous. I bet if he
would have wrote it as a novel about an adult in his 30’s, it probably
would have made it to the dollar book bin in less than a month.
Talk about being
cynical huh? But you asked!
I guess
I’ll just never understand why this is such a great book.
So now I will
gracefully step down from my lectern and go to bed.
But before I
do... Dude, don’t get so bent out of shape over these animated
discussions we’ve been having, because that’s all they are.
No need to lose
any sleep, it’s just two people discussing a number of topics they
can’t seem to agree on and nothing more. Now if you start bring out the
“Your Momma” smack... well then it’s on, but until then, as
“Jake” said to “Farmer Ted” “Relax!”
(I’ll wait to see if you can get that obscure quote from that particular
movie)
Late
Jack
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:55:47 -0700
(PDT)
From: "Joseph Vasquez”
<jvasque8@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: he
coulda been a contender
interesting
take, the new yorker made a similar observation about a year ago. one point i
would like to argue is that holden’s angst stems from his desire to care
for everything and every one. he wants to be the catcher in the rye, god on earth.
salinger, the deranged author as you put it (i paraphrase), does indeed put
this adult notion into the head of a child, but that is because his audience
was made up of primarily adults. although, as you suggest, some teens do feel
as holden does without ever reading the book.
to read this
novel in the fourth grade was a mistake, but to dismiss it seems also to
dismiss american culture. holden’s “vacation” is actually
attempted suicide. you may not agree with holden’s outlook, but try
reading it again and look for holden within yourself. think about it, you are
holden (rejection of academia for worldly pleasures, attitude that others are
not true individuals such as yourself). i have the habit of looking for a
universality in people. i know that goes against american individualism, but
the fact that every american wants to be an individual suggests a certain
uniformity. it is interesting that you feel overly educated people look down
their noses at “uneducated” folk. i know plenty of snobs who lack a
high school diploma and many phd holders who never speak of their achievements.
snobbery knows no class boundaries. besides being a fan of john hughes films,
what else interests you and what would you call an american classic? does an
american classic have to appeal to all, or should we censor nasty and otherwise
distasteful art to maintain a cheery outlook on life?
how happy can a
guy be who feels others are out to make him inferior? anyhow, thanks. for the
info.
joe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: “THE KID”
<the-kid@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: he
coulda been a contender
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:21:26 -0700
Nice try Joe,
but a psychoanalyst you’re not. You should keep your day job.
Holden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:30:00 -0700
(PDT)
From: "Joseph Vasquez”
<jvasque8@yahoo.com> Subject: Re:
he coulda been a contender
maybe not, but
that wasn’t my aim. anyhow, all of us should consider this point made by
matt miller (host of left right and center): the military being used and
cheered by the neo-cons was created in the past decade by . . . . bill clinton.
it was during the clinton years that the military was scaled down and made more
technologically oriented. bush and company claimed that clinton’s
policies demoralized the armed forces.
they seem pretty
happy right now. maybe michael moore was right to call him the best republican
president ever. please don’t get me wrong, i am not a huge fan of
clinton, but like miller, i believe in giving credit where credit is due.
joe
p.s. why do we
allow non-citizens to fight for the country, but make it nearly impossible for
them to gain citizenship?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
“Brian Day” <therealslimbrian@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 12
Apr 2003 22:52:58 -0700
Subject: Re: he
coulda been a contender
If you really
want to hear about it, the first thing you’ll probably want to know is
where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, and how my friends were
occupied with e-mail “discussions,” and all that Arnold Jackson
kind of crap, but I don’t feel like going into it, if you want to know the
truth. In the first place, this stuff bores me, and in the second place, my
friends Joe/Eric and Jack would have about two hemorrhages apiece if I told
anything pretty personal about them. They’re quite touchy about anything
like that, especially Jack. They’re nice and all—I’m not
saying that—but they’re also touchy as hell. Besides, I’m not
going to tell you about my whole goddam political bent or anything. I’ll
just tell you about this madman stuff that happened to us around last month
just before we got pretty run-down and stopped checking our in-boxes to take it
easy. I mean that’s all I told E.B. about, and he’s my friend and
all. He’s pretty liberal.
That isn’t
too far from my crumby politics, and he comes over and visits my classroom
practically every weekday. He’s going to drive me around when I get laid
off next month maybe. He just got a Hybrid. One of those little Honda jobs that
can do around 50 miles an hour. Anyway, one time when we were in the
men’s room way the hell down in the other wing, E.B. asked me what I
thought about all this stuff we seem to effortlessly delete now. I didn’t
know what the hell to say. If you want the truth, I don’t know what I
think about it. I’m sorry I forwarded so many people about it. About all
I know is, I sort of miss everybody I forwarded about. Even old Dick Winters
and Villasenor, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Jack. It’s
funny. Don’t ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing
everybody.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:17:56 -0700
Subject: Re:
he coulda been a contender
From: “Richard Winters”
<jdrudge@earthlink.net>
Hey, who are you
calling “old?” You’re too young to call me old. I’m the
only one old enough to call me old, so there. Besides, I’m doing my part
for the budget, I’m retiring. God, I feel old.
Old Dick Winters
(Hey, it has a nice ring to it)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------