From: ≥Eric Burgess≤ < zteecher@yahoo

From: ≥Eric Burgess≤ < zteecher@yahoo.com

Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 9:37 AM

Subject: the bottom line...

aside from the political posturing from left and right, the dubya administrationπs stated reason for launching the war was to rid iraq of WMDs. the bottom line is that there is NO evidence that iraq possesses, produces or concealed nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. dubya can talk all he wants about the ≥darn good≤ intelligence and even slyly change his stance to a belief in a weapons ≥program≤ but what it all boils down to is the aftermath of an illegal war which continues to average an american death nearly every single day. unlike cheney i am not ≥comfortable≤ with the hundreds of thousands of american military personnel looking like siting ducks in the middle of the allah-forsaken desert. but then iπm just a liberal who supports howard dean.

peace,

============================================

From: ≥THE KID≤ <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: 12 - Step Program

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:43:32 -0700

≥Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program≤ By Jeremy Robb

Several months ago, I heard a radio host refer to liberalism as a ≥mental disorder.≤ As odd as this concept might seem, I think I actually agree with him. Iπve seen liberalism turn some of the most intelligent people I know into propaganda-spewing robots who care only about the message, not the inaccuracies behind the message. Emotion always trumps logic for them, regardless of the blatantly obvious.

Given the difficulty in bringing liberals into the light, I thought it might be helpful to provide them with a 12-step program that could make it easier for a successful transition into reality. As conservatives, we have to remember that we can only be supportive to liberals in this program.

They cannot do it alone, but we also cannot do it for them.

The Program:

Step 1: Admitting that youπre a liberal

This is the first step for every liberal on the way to recovery. It is important to understand that youπre not ≥progressive,≤ ≥moderate,≤ or ≥enlightened.≤ Youπre a liberal, and you need to be honest with yourself about that fact.

Step 2: Pledge to support your beliefs with facts

Realize that truth is more important than moral superiority and is the only way to come over to reality. You must research beyond propaganda from the Sierra Club, Hillary Clinton, and CNN (the Communist News Network) to understand things as they really exist in the world. You can no longer argue based on ≥feelings≤ or emotion. You will actually need to back up your arguments with real information. This is a difficult step, because it means you canπt be lazy any more.

Step 3: Love America

This may be the most difficult step for those of you who are hippies and peaceniks. Admitting that the country you hate actually stands as a beacon to defend freedom throughout the world can make some of you physically ill.

You might want to make a visit to a military cemetery to better understand that these men and women gave their lives so that you could spew hatred.

Otherwise, you would currently be living in a police state that would never let you wear that nasty patchouli oil, let alone speak out against your government.

Step 4: Take a college level economics class

Iπve always defined a Socialist as someone whoπs never taken an economics class. Most Socialists Iπve spoke with would have a hard time balancing their checkbooks, let alone explaining the simple concept of supply-and-demand. Itπs time to flush your complete ignorance of basic economics down the toilet and understand how the world actually functions.

This concept will be very important for the next steps that involve communism, facts about corporations, and the inefficiencies of government.

Step 5: Say ≥no≤ to Communism and Socialism

While this concept is obvious to most of the free world, it is an important step in your recovery process. If you have difficulty with this step, spend a week living and working in Cuba.

Step 6: Corporations are not evil

If youπre reading this article online or in an e-mail, itπs thanks to corporations. If you get some kind of paycheck, you can thank corporations.

If you work for a non-profit or the government, you still have to thank corporations. The non-profit sector and the government wouldnπt have any money to pay you without corporations. It is also important that you understand that making a profit doesnπt equate to ≥greed≤ or exploitation.

Capitalism has created the greatest society in our worldπs history.

Even communist countries need corporations to survive, so enjoy a nice, hot cup of reality.

Step 7: The government is inefficient

If you are one of those liberals who believe the government should tax us more in order to take care of society, you need to pay special attention to this step. You need to realize that government bureaucracy will waste most of your tax dollars, while the private sector will put your money to much better use. Even most Democrat politicians understand this to some degree, which is why Hillaryπs socialist healthcare proposal was voted down by a majority of both Democrats and Republicans. Go to your local post office or call the IRS to ask a tax question if you need a reminder about government inefficiency.

Step 8: The earth is not your ≥mother,≤ and sheπs not dying

The time has now come to stop your donations to Greenpeace, The Sierra Club, and every other EnviroNazi organization to which you belong. Face the reality that the earth, society, and our environment are better off today than ever in recorded history and that they are continuing to improve.

I realize that many of you tree huggers will have a very difficult time letting go of the Douglas Fir on this one. I would suggest reading The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjorn Lomborg. Mr. Lomborg is a former member of Greenpeace and is currently a statistics professor at a university in Denmark. He set out to prove the world was in bad shape and ended up surprising himself by proving the exact opposite.

Step 9: Stop smoking the wacky tobaccy

Okay, some of you might need to enter another 12-step program to complete this step. Marijuana is distorting your sense of reality, and you need to stop using it. Besides, youπll save a fortune on snacks.

Step 10: Eat a hamburger

If God didnπt intend for us to eat animals, he wouldnπt have made them out of meat. You can put your sprouts and tofu on the hamburger, but get some meat into you. Youπll look and feel better than you ever imagined. You can always remind yourself that Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian to get you through this step.

Step 11: Stop re-writing political history

Itπs now time to admit that Bill Clinton is a lying-cheating-sexist-racist-rapist jackass, Hillary Clinton is one of the worst role models for women in this country, Al Gore really did lose the 2000 election by every vote tabulation you attempt (trying to get homeless people to vote for him for a pack of cigarettes didnπt work either), Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War and didnπt create the homeless problem, John McCain is not a typical Republican, and Jimmy Carter is a nice man but has one of the worst presidential records of anyone in history.

Step 12: Be a missionary

Once you have completed the previous steps to overcoming liberalism, itπs time for you to share this awakening with others who are not as fortunate.

Go out amongst the liberal sheep and spread the good word of your freedom from the chains of ignorance that once bound you. Congratulations, and welcome to reality.

============================================

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:24:12 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez≤ <jvasque8@yahoo.com> |

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

so liberalism is a disease. it should be eradicated, right? well, i remember a couple of groups who sought to purify their countries by eliminating liberal/progressive thought: the soviets and the nazis. so the right wing of this nation is finally willing to show its true colors. red neck, blue collar, and white trash (remember of course, that one need not be of european decent to fit this description. hell, one need not be blue collar, just look at ward connerlly). in any case, any time the right wants to start the witch hunt and run liberals/progressives out of the country, i say, to quote our illustrious leader, bring it on! reading your 12 step program is quite entertaining, since it assumes that right logic is the only logic. does this mean that ollie north is an american hero for selling guns to the evil iranian empire so the funds could be used to fund the freedom fighting contras who, as they battled the evil sandinistas, engaged in drug trafficking and crimes against humanity? also, the communist news network? are you kidding me? is right logic so perverse that it ignores cnnπs allegiance to profit rather than ideology? i guess the right wing should be notified that the term ≥right≤ refers to the location of a group. in fact, the conservatives, as history/legend tells us, who served the king ( i forget which king) sat to the right of said king. the reformers, or opposition leaders, sat to his left.

therefore, the ≥right wing≤ refers to the group sitting on the right, not the ≥correct≤ side. but, to further complicate things (as i love to do), when right and left were determined, whose right was referenced? the kingπs? the subjects facing the king?

who knows? maybe, the attempt to place a definition itself proves to be flawed. to quote tin cup, perfection is unattainable. why stifle debate when that just means that stagnation would set in? with out the left, who would the right have to oppose? and vice versa (and verse vice-a). in the end, no matter who wins the next election, or the one after that, political debate will continue . . . hopefully. who really wants to end debate? and why do they? do they truly have the answer? or are they just scaredy cats, afraid of change and new ideas and discourse? (and by ≥they≤, i also include liberals/progressives who call for the eradication of the right . . . begrudgingly).

joe

p.s. eric, you may have converted me, though dean still looks like elmer fudd on crank.

============================================

From: ≥THE KID≤ <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:48:14 -0700

LOL huh?

Lighten up Joey, itπs just a little ≥Right Wing≤ (that history/legend tells us, who served the king ( i forget which king) sat to the right of said king. the reformers, or opposition leaders, sat to his left.

therefore, the ≥right wing≤ refers to the group sitting on the right, not the ≥correct≤ side. but, to further complicate things (as i love to do ≥YES YOU DO≤), when right and left were determined, whose right was referenced? the kingπs? the subjects facing the king?

who knows? maybe, the attempt to place a definition itself proves to be flawed.) HUMOR!

Although I do believe ≥CNN≤ isnπt a Communist New Network, it should be called ≥SNN≤ Socialist News Network.

WIND HIM UP, AND WATCH HIM GOOOOOOOOO! LOL

Jack

============================================

From: ≥Eric Burgess≤ < zteecher@yahoo.com >

Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:47 PM

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

suffice it to say, i am not surprised by jackπs attempt at ≥humor≤.

============================================

From: ≥THE KID≤ <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:24:30 -0700

Youπre not???

I guess only ≥Libπs≤ have the market at ≥Attempts≤ at humor...

============================================

From: ≥Eric Burgess≤ < zteecher@yahoo.com >

Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 3:11 PM

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

≥attempt≤ was precisely my point.

============================================

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:33:54 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez≤ <jvasque8@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

i apologize for not labeling my previous email an example of satire. i shall not make the same mistake again. please forgive me if my words caused any discomfort to your otherwise peachy keen day.

joe

p.s. satire is the use of humor to illuminate a serious subject (and to provide the author with a good laugh)

p.s.s. pat roberston is asking people to pray that god might make room on the supreme court for more conservatives. is god still in the smiting business? who should he smite? oπconnor? and finally, doesnπt he have bigger fish to smite? (the author is on a roll today)

============================================

From: ≥THE KID≤ <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:47:26 -0700

Apology accepted.

p.s.s. God is a ≥Sovereign God≤ who makes no distinctions between ≥Small≤ or ≥Big≤ fish.

Cπmon Joey, I thought you read your Bible for reasons other than just to scoff at it?

Jack

============================================

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:19:28 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez≤ <jvasque8@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING MAY CONTAIN SATIRE.

so youπre saying that the sovereign should kill off oπconnor? cπmon kid, i thought youπd understand that asking god to make room on the court was about as ridiculous as asking god to help your team win the super bowl. shouldnπt divine intervention require more than a ≥oh please oh please oh please≤? but, alas, i guess one cannot question anotherπs religious principles, as john milton suggests and even urges, without being deemed a scoffer. my point, as should have been apparent, was to mock the most revered robertson, but i guess any man of god is above reproach. by this logic, is oral roberts indeed a saint, worthy of the millions sent to him to do godπs work(like building a university in his, roberts, name)? was jim baker infallible until the day he confessed(to drugging then having some sort of sex with jessica hahn)? cπmon lil jacky . . . reread the joke and get a chuckle . . . robertson is again of his gourd!

joe

============================================

Eric Burgess < zteecher@yahoo.com > wrote:

oral roberts? pat robertson? jim baker? jimmy swaggert? in the eyes of god (sovereign or not) these guys are pussies! itπs all about benny hinn, baby!

(note to brian: thatπs benny HINN not benny HILL.) who else can heal former heavyweight champion of the world evander ≥the real deal≤ holyfield? bennyπs the one who should have that nickname. thatπs right, none of the aforementioned hacks have anything on my boy benny. i mean, seriously, he claims he was miraculously cured by god of severe stuttering when he was younger.

plus, the dudeπs books have outsold every other major christian author by far yep, even the corporal punishment doctor himself, james dobson, got spanked by benny boy. (sorry, i gave into temptation with that last one). wait a minute *light bulb* forget howard dean. benny hinn for president. that would most certainly guarantee that god would be on our side.

peace,

p.s. joe, remember, after you jump on the benny hinn bandwagon you need to curb your blasphemous words against the above disciples of the lord almighty. he said, ≥The Bible warns us clearly that we must not attack men of God no matter how sinful they may have become or wicked in our eyes.≤ word to your father.

============================================

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:50:37 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez≤ <jvasque8@yahoo.com> |

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

benny hinn is now my personal guide. i have ordered the video, the dvd and the book on tape. my life is turning for the better. i love big bro . . . i mean, i love benny hinn.

joe

p.s. thank you for setting me straight eric. you rule man. all bow before the glory that is the hinn!

============================================

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:42:25 -0700

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

From: ≥THE KID≤ <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

This is exactly why Jesus said to follow ≥Him≤ and not men.

Yet I'm still trying to find that verse ("The Bible warns us clearly that we must not attack men of God no matter how sinful they may have become or wicked in our eyes.≤) you came up with Eric.

Where exactly did you come up with that? I don't think I've ever seen that one before?

Although, it's unfortunate that in your attempt at humor (Geez even I know that Hinn's comb over is the funniest and yet at the same time, scariest thing I've ever seen,) you have managed to associate Jesus with men who have embarrassed not only themselves but those of the same faith, which gives people like you ample ammo to make fun of them and Jesus. Which is highly understandable and expected. This quote comes to mind... ≥The word of God is very plain as to duty of rebuking sin, from the neglect into which the work has fallen, one might have imagined that it was left optional, or allowed, rather than commanded.≤ Charles H. Spurgeon

But what is also sad is that people who tend to objectify Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior (God) based on those people who claim to be ≥Born Again Christians≤ and then seriously do something stupid, illegal or just absolutely blasphemous. But people like that are the ones who go to the ≥Spiritual Buffet≤ and pick and choose bits and pieces from so called ≥Religions≤ to suit their needs or think they know God's word from the Bible and come up with their own ≥interpretation≤ of his word.

And these people don't hold themselves up to any moral standard whatsoever, other than that they consider themselves to be ≥Good≤ people. Yet are quick to point out those who are willing to try and fail from time to time and then use that as an excuse to dismiss ≥Born Again Christians≤ and Jesus because of those who have blasphemed him by saying things like ≥Well if oral roberts, pat robertson, jim baker and jimmy swaggert are so called Christians, and they did the things they did, forget it, I'll never be a Christian.≤ I know this, because at one time, I was one of them.

And as I've told you numerous times in our many discussions about this topic, ≥Religion≤ is man's attempt to reach God (Ceremony, Repetitive Ritualism, Works or Idolatry e.g. No meat on Friday's, Lent, Saying the Rosary, Praying to Mary or Saints, Wearing Special underwear, lighting candles, going on missions, etc. etc. None of which is even Scriputally based, at all) whereas accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, is a ≥Personal Relationship≤ with ≥Him≤ without all of the aforementioned, plain and simple. You pray to him and only him, you worship him and him only, plain and simple. But here's the catch, now you are morally accountable in the eye's of God to live by his word as best as you can, which is the Bible.u warns that idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

That's why many people refuse to accept him as such, because they do not want any of that moral accountability, and nobody can or ever will be able to live up to his word without sinning or coming up short (myself included). And this is on a daily basis. You ask him for forgiveness and he will forgive you. Now before Joey jumps on the ≥So uh, if I kill somebody just because I want to, Jesus will forgive me?

and then I can go out and kill somebody else and he'll still forgive me?≤ Jesus knows your heart, and he knows one that is lying (e.g. I would say that Hinn falls into that category by deceiving all those people, but he too can TRULY repent and be forgiven)

So, who is God to you? (For non atheists, that's a whole other topic for another day) Is he only a God (Higher Power) of love and mercy who would never judge anyone and never cast anyone into Hell? If that's your God, then you're right! Your God couldn't cast anyone into Hell because he doesn't exist. He's a figment of your imagination. You've ≥Created≤ a God in your own mind that you're more comfortable with.

You may call it your ≥Personal Belief≤ but God calls it idolatry. It's the oldest sin in the book, and the Bible warns that Idolaters will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. For all have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God.

Maybe you think God is good and because of his goodness he will overlook your sins? But if you knew of a human judge who turned a blind eye to the crimes of a guilty rapist... would you describe him as a ≥Good≤ judge? No. That would be a ≥Corrupt≤ judge. God could never be a corrupt judge.

I'll leave you with a little something from Charles H. Spurgeon,

≥Barking at Thunder≤

The first time our young dog heard the thunder it startled him. He leaped up, gazed around in anger, and then began to bark at the disturber of his peace. When the next crash came he grew furious, and flew round the room, seeking to tear in pieces the intruder who dared thus to defy him. It was an odd scene. The yelping of a dog pitted against the artillery of heaven! Poor foolish creature, to think that his bark could silence the thunder-clap, or intimidate the tempest!

What was he like? His imitators are not far to seek. Among us at this particular juncture there are men of an exceedingly doggish breed who go about howling at their Maker. They endeavor to bark the Almighty out of existence, to silence the voice of his gospel, and to let him know that their rest is not to be disturbed by his warnings. We need not particularize; the creatures are often heard, and are very fond of public note, even when it takes an unfriendly form. Let them alone.

They present a pitiful spectacle. We could smile at them if we did not feel much more compelled to weep. The elements of a tragedy are wrapt up in this comedy. To-day they defy their Maker, but to-morrow they may be crushed beneath his righteous indignation. At any rate, the idea of fearing them must never occur to us; their loudest noise is vocalized folly; their malice is impotent, their fury is mere fume. ≥He that sitteth in the heavens doth laugh: the Lord doth have them in derision."ã C. H. S.

Jack

Word to the Non Believers!

Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. Heywood Broun

============================================

From: ≥Clark A. A.≤ <clark.a.@gte.net>

To: ≥Eric Burgess≤ <zteecher@yahoo.com>

Subject: RE: 12 - Step Program

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:44:21 -0700

Hey Eric,

Humor us...but DONπT make a mockery of God or Blaspheme Him. ≥In the eyes of God, these guys are≤ His children...NOT what you mentioned. Keep it light, but DONπT disrespect your creator.

God Bless, Clark.

P.S. As you recall...one of the Ten Commandments says, ≥There shall be no other Godπs before me≤. This includes your ≥worship filled≤ viewpoint of Benny Hinn. Anyone who glorifies themselves (like Benny Hinn does) and doesnπt give the ≥glory to God≤, is skating on thin ice.

============================================

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:01:26 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Joseph Vasquez≤ <jvasque8@yahoo.com> |

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

first off . . . clark, you want off the list? ask whoever put you on here to take you off or donπt respond to my gibberish . . . after all, that is all it is. now, you and the lil kid both fail to realize that my attack on ≥men of god≤ is just that, an attack on THEM. one aspect of both your replies bugged me: why does the fact that i question or mock human frailties immediately make me an immoral nonbeliever when the people i mock is somehow associated with religion(look christians, there are other religions out there that i am trying to offend as well, so stop hogging all the glory!)? seriously, reread my postings. they attack MEN, not any god or God. by the way, ≥thou shalt have no god before me≤ can be, and has been, taken to mean that the christian god comes first, then all other gods. many early versions of the church survived because of this flexible reading. but, if we are to take the bible literally, i guess we should stone those guilty of adultery. and homosexuals. and women should retreat to the hither regions of the town during their periods. and all those who violate the law should be punished accordingly. oh wait, that law was superseded by jesus when he said ≥love thy neighbor as thyself.≤ i often forget that, as do many fundamentalists. for the love of pete (and i do love pete),if we take the bible (a text written by men with ≥divine inspiration≤) literally, ghandi is rotting in hell. remember kid(s), i am not disrespecting your religion or you, i am disrespecting those who suck (i.e. benny hinn, pat robertson, etc.) if your belief somehow binds you to them in such a manner that makes you feel defensive, then consider yourself mocked as well. but as you have made very clear, you are not to be counted among such unsavory characters. one question iπd like to clear up, i am not an atheist. i just have the nagging suspicion that there is no one right faith and am still searching for one that fits. for the most part, itπs catholicism with a sprinkle of beat-writer buddhism, but not atheism. i do not pretend to know that much. hell, death is the undiscovered territory for a reason. iπll deal with that when i get there, to paraphrase confucius (and that means following the golden rule, which, by the way, is found in many faiths that pre- and postdate christianity). by the way, has anyone read the gospel of thomas? i have heard it compares interestingly with the gospel of john. apparently it was left out of the new testament by a pope who decided it didnπt fit his version of the truth. somehow i donπt think he was divinely inspired to act in such a manner, but who knows.

joe

(or joseph i suppose, but i prefer jedadiah at times too; hell call me what ever you want, just call me)

p.s. the above contained hints of satire.

p.s.s. in the interest of being painfully clear: i didnπt associate jesus with the scum of the earth, they did (i.e. robertson, falwell, baker, swaggert, hinn, etc.) focus your rants at them.

ps.s.s. so iπm still unclear on this since no one cleared it up, does god love the tampa bay bucs more?

i mean, they did win the super bowl.

============================================

From: ≥Clark A. A.≤ <clark.a.@gte.net>

Subject: FW: 12 - Step Program

Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:37:00 -0700

Joseph, (Ironically, this is my 9 year old sonπs name, too)

Iπve had a change of heart...leave me ON your list.

Usually satire is used when one wants to cover-up REAL emotions and insecurities. Your self-professed ≥confusion≤ on RELIGION would be obvious to Helen Keller. (Now THATπs ≥satire≤) (LOL)

To clarify your comment of ≥Why does the fact that I question or mock human frailties immediately make me an immoral nonbeliever(?)≤, I donπt recall addressing this in my response...BUT...since YOU brought it up...let me CORRECT (clarify) the situation. We are ALL born as immoral nonbeliever(s).

We ALL sin and fall short of the Glory of God. God also says that the wages of sin is DEATH. With this in mind, we ALL have a problem, donπt we.

If you were in court for a $150 speeding ticket and did NOT have a penny to your name, what do you think the judge would do? If he was a JUST judge, he would enforce the law unbiased and put you in jail. Imagine this...if you told the judge you felt he should let you go simply because you are a ≥good person≤. What do you think heπd say? Heπd probably think youπre nuts, then tell the guards to handcuff you and take you away. With this in mind...as you were being taken away in your handcuffs for the ≥crime≤ youπve committed, a stranger comes into the courtroom, tells the guards to STOP, and puts $150 cash into the hands of the judge to pay your fine for you!

What an AMAZING gift youπve just received! This is what Jesus Christ did on the Cross. Heπs paid the price for YOUR sins! This analogy only means something to someone who has SEEN their depths of their depravity and sees the NEED for this gift. If you walk around life blinded into thinking ≥Iπm a good person, so God will allow me into Heaven and Iπll avoid hell because Iπve said 2,276 Hail Maryπs, passed out 4,588 Watchtower or Awake magazines from door to door, etc.≤ (You get the point) then youπll be sadly disappointed on Judgment Day. Like the gospel says, the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus Christ...because he is the only SINLESS man (Not Buddha, Not Gandhi, Not Muhammad, Not the Pope) to ever ≥take our sins≤ upon himself. Accept Jesus Christ as YOUR Lord and Savior, and enjoy the peace of knowing your ≥sin problem≤ has then been taken care of.

No Jesus, No Peace...Know Jesus, Know Peace.

God Bless, Clark.

P.S. I have experienced ≥firsthand≤ the GRACE of God personally in my life...BEFORE I came to Jesus Christ for Salvation, I used to drink alcohol, Iπve smoked marijuana, Iπve had a few lines of cocaine, Iπve committed Adultery, participated in the decision to have an abortion, etc., etc.

Itπs through the GRACE of God, that Jesus has ≥reckoned the old man dead≤ as I have been ≥born again≤. (This should also bring CLARITY to the cliche as well.)

P.P.S. Rams rule! (LOL) I agree, God could probably care less about who wins the Super Bowl...unless itπs Kurt Warner taking center stage (like he did) and saying, ≥First things first, Iπd like to give all the Glory to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...≤ during the Super Bowl postgame speech.

To God be all the Glory!

============================================

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003

11:50:41 -0700 (PDT)

From: "tad douglas≤ <knight5517@yahoo.com>

Question-what does the present administration(those calling the shots),the catholic church,enron. world com,etc. etc. etc.have in common- ANSWER- old rich white guys who share the same mantra DENY, ≥DEFLECT, DEFEND-DENY,DEFLECT,DEFEND-DENY,DEFLECT,DEFEND≤.

============================================

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:57:38 -0700 (PDT)

From: ≥Eric Burgess≤ <zteecher@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

apparently joe and i have both been scolded by clark, yet clark has decided to reply to us privately and independantly as opposed to continuing the thread. in keeping with the spirit of these debates i forwarded his response to me and now i give you his reponses to joe:

---------

#1 Hey Liberal looney...please REMOVE me from YOUR list.

God Bless America!

Clark.

#2 Hey Joseph, Humor us...but DONπT make a mockery of God or Blaspheme Him. I donπt bow to ANY human being (much less Benny Hinn), I only bow to my CREATOR.

There will come a day (as scripture promises - Revelation) were ≥like it or not≤ EVERY knee shall bow to Jesus Christ. Keep it light, but DONπT disrespect your creator.

God Bless,

Clark.

---------

eric again:

ooookkkkaaaayyyy..... now seriously, clark, you have clearly missed the point of these debates. i guess this is jackπs fault (you know, the guy who added you to the list) for not fully explaining the reason why we engage in them. and remember, dude, at the end of the day we should still be able respect each otherπs viewpoints. if you canπt find the tolerance to do so canπt you need to PRAY for some. (see, that was me mocking you, not god.)

============================================

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:13:30 -0700 (PDT)

From: ≥Eric Burgess≤ <zteecher@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

oh, and just as jesus becomes the topic, ≥neon≤ deion sanders had to go and make christians look like cheap bastards, too:

≥Former Cowboy sued over auto repair bill Associated Press≤

DALLAS -- A judge listened to testimony Monday and is expected to rule soon whether former Dallas Cowboy Deion Sanders owes money to a body shop for work done on his vintage 1961 Lincoln Continental convertible.

State District Judge Joe Cox took the case under advisement after the one-day trial, said court administrator Donna Bouthton.

The owner of the repair shop said Sanders wanted to pay only $1,500 of the $4,265.57 bill, saying that Jesus had informed him that was all he needed to pay.

≥Itπs the åPraise Jesusπ discount,ππ attorney Ed Edson told The Dallas Morning News in Mondayπs editions.

Edson said he has been trying to collect the bill from Sanders since 2001 on behalf of Phil Compton, the owner of the car repair business.

Through court filings, the player says the accusations are untrue. Sanders was in the courtroom Monday but did not testify.

Anthony Montoya, a representative for Sanders, had contacted Compton and told him the convertible needed to be towed to his shop for repairs. The car had been repaired before by Compton.

Papers filed in his lawsuit stated that he and his mechanics installed a new radiator and thermostat, flushed the engine, repaired the carπs electrical system and gauges, replaced the starter motor, removed contaminated fuel and rebuilt the carburetor. Mechanics for Magrathea Inc., Comptonπs company, had replaced gaskets and hoses.

Sanders had approved and Montoya had approved all the repairs, according to the lawsuit. But when the car was returned to the CBS sportscasterπs home in Plano on Nov. 5, 2001, Compton said Pilar Sanders, the former Cowboyπs wife, ≥answered the door, took the keys and invoices, started the car to make sure it was working and went back into the locked house, refusing to return the keys or invoices.ππ

Sandersπ bodyguards and housekeepers then moved their cars in front of and behind the Lincoln so that it couldnπt be towed back to the garage, the lawsuit stated.

When Sanders drove up, he refused to pay the invoice amount, handing Compton a $1,500 check and saying, ≥Praise Jesus ... I follow what in my heart Iπm told to pay.ππ

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From: ≥THE KID≤ <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:31:07 -0700

My Bad, I didnπt fully explain as you say ≥The Spirit of these Debates,≤ which I just did before I began typing this.

Donπt you think anyone would have felt the same jumping in right in the middle of this not knowing how long theyπve been going on? Especially not knowing the extent of Mockery that both sides (Me vs EVERYONE ELSE) are willing to go to?

Cut him a little slack you ≥Liberal Looney≤ LOL I have been in therapy since Diana laid into me so his response is quite tame compared to hers.

As ≥Wooderson≤ said... Keep On Keeping On.

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From: ≥THE KID≤ <the-kid@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: 12 - Step Program

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:53:44 -0700

Awwww, so now your saying your son wonπt have a role model because of that?

But then again, with your history of us Christians for the last several years (Me in particular) you know that weπre all spineless, meek, cheek turning patsies huh? Especially me, right?

The shock and horror to know that ≥GULP!≤ a CHRISTIAN who was told that the work he wanted done was going to cost him $1500 and when that wasnπt the price, he only paid what he was originally quoted. Not like any NON CHRISTIAN would do that, God Forbid. http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/6303623.htm Once again Eric, you never let the FACTS get in the way of the TRUTH!

Keep ≥Barking at the Thunder≤ my friend.

Jack

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From: ≥Clark A. A.≤ <clark.a.@gte.net>

Subject: RE: 12 - Step Program

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 22:35:28 -0700

Hi Eric,

Still as fast as you used to be in the outfield? You rock at softball!

Anyway, since I have no way of ≥forwarding≤ to ≥the list≤...please feel free to add my earlier response to Joseph to ≥the list≤ to ≥keep in the spirit≤ of fairness...

SEE BELOW...

Joseph, (Ironically, this is my 9 year old sonπs name, too)

Iπve had a change of heart...leave me ON your list.

Usually satire is used when one wants to cover-up REAL emotions and insecurities. Your self-professed ≥confusion≤ on RELIGION would be obvious to Helen Keller. (Now THATπs ≥satire≤) (LOL)

We ALL sin and fall short of the Glory of God. God also says that the wages of sin is DEATH. With this in mind, we ALL have a problem, donπt we.

No Jesus, No Peace...Know Jesus, Know Peace.

God Bless, Clark.

Itπs through the GRACE of God, that Jesus has ≥reckoned the old man dead≤ as I have been ≥born again≤. (This should also bring CLARITY to the cliche as well.) P.P.S. Rams rule! (LOL) I agree, God could probably care less about who wins the Super Bowl...unless itπs Kurt Warner taking center stage (like he did) and saying, ≥First things first, Iπd like to give all the Glory to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...≤ during the Super Bowl postgame speech.

To God be all the Glory!

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From: ≥Clark A. A.≤ <clark.a.@gte.net>

Subject: RE: 12 - Step Program

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:38:15 -0700

Hey Eric,

Please explain how the actions of ≥Neon≤ Deion Sanders has any correlation with me or any other Christian (besides possibly ≥Neon≤ himself) being a ≥cheap bastard≤??? Thatπs like saying that ALL Catholics are child molesters because some priest with a pedophile profile decides to invade and violate a few choir boys. ≥Guilty by association≤ doesnπt work with the intelligent readers.

By the way...pass this message on to ≥the list≤ as well.

Jesus Saves!

Clark.

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From: Eric Burgess [mailto: zteecher@yahoo.com ]

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 7:16 AM

Subject: Re: FW: 12 - Step Program

yeah, um, first off, your previous definition of satire seems like a personal one since it is incorrect. i know dubya accused liberals of rewriting history, so i guess itπs fair to say conservatives are rewriting writing. check it: ≥sat7ire (n.) sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.≤ and that, my friend, is what what happening behind the curtains of my deion sanders comment.

peace,

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From: ≥Clark A. A.≤ <clark.a.@gte.net>

Subject: RE: FW: 12 - Step Program

Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:59:49 -0700

Big E,

That was funny, dude! I see at least 3 grammatical errors in YOUR writing.

Niiiiiccee! ;-)

Clark.

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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:10:21 -0700

Subject: Re: FW: 12 - Step Program

From: ≥JAX BOX≤ <jaxbox@sbcglobal.net>

OH SNAP!!!

HE DID NOT... JUST CORRECT AN ENGLISH HONORS TEACHER ON HIS GRAMMATICAL ERRORS!

LOL

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On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 10:33 PM,

Eric Burgess wrote:

clark,

first, let me apologize for going after you earlier. you are new to these debates and i should, as jack rightly suggested, cut you some slack. from your latest response to me it is clear that i bruised your sensitive ego, so i should just stop here. but...

since you have found it necessary to point out my ≥errors≤ i guess you need the ego-bolstering. please, enjoy the moment and bask as long as you need. if you ever want to read one of my formal essays where structure and grammar count just let me know. clearly (obviously a poor assumption for some readers) i am unconcerned with such trifles when itπs the ideas that count.

while we are in the mood shall i correct your latest two lines?

1) donπt abbreviate

2) spell out all numbers less than 10 (e.g. one, five, nine)

3) if you are following capitalization rules DONπT do it to EMPHASIZE a POINT;

4) your use of ≥Niiiiiccee!≤ is incorrect for two reasons:

A) there is no need to strrrrreeeeetch out your words for effect. if you find the onomatopoeia-like effect necessary you have already faaaiiiiiled as a writer to make the point

B) you placed the word in a place that is reserved for the written formula for ending a letter. this means two things: i) you end with a comma, leading to your signature. by ending with an exclamation point you make it a sentence; but without a subject and predicate it is a fragment. (e.g. ≥jesus wept.≤) ii) the word is traditionally an adverb

5) donπt put a period after your name. again, it is not a sentence.

if you need any further assistance i invite you to sit in on my summer school class at rosemead high school in room 16 from 7:30 a.m. to 1:26 p.m. monday through thursday.

peace, eb

p.s. profuse apologies for any more errors. we canπt all be gospel writers.

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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:53:47 -0700

Subject: Re: FW: 12 - Step Program

To: ≥Eric Burgess≤ <zteecher@yahoo.com>

From: ≥JAX BOX≤ <jaxbox@sbcglobal.net>

See what I mean Dick? Subtle with a slight whiff of backhanded sarcasm... heπs the best! I saw that one coming a mile away... LOL

Damn E, thatπs exactly why I donπt ever make fun of anyone elseπs grammar, speech or typoπs.

That last dressing down epitomized EVERY (Damn what rule was that?

number 2 or oh crap wait was that spell out every number after 10 or before? and if that was rule #3 oops three then I should spell it out with emphasizing in capitals if I am following the capitalization rules so then I have to spell out #two instead of typing it number 2 Damn!) english teacher I ever loathed and seemed to always get throughout my skoolin years.

So many damn rules just to communicate, and I liked to stretch my words out to make a point.

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate!

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From: ≥Clark A. A.≤ <clark.a.@gte.net>

Subject: RE: FW: 12 - Step Program

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:16:58 -0700

Classic! That was awesome! Youπve got an awesome sense of humor. ;-)

Laaaattttteeee!!!!

Clark.*^

P.S. Italians donπt have ≥sensitive egoπs≤ to bruise...although we have BIG hands and BIG feet. With this in mind, I think wifey is calling me to ≥service her≤ (again..for the 3rd time tonight) in the other room.

P.P.S. Sorry for the grammmmatticcalll errors. (LOL)

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Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:49:17 -0700 (PDT

From: "Joseph Vasquez≤ <jvasque8@yahoo.com>

Subject: RE: FW: 12 - Step Program

ok, so we got a couple of italian stallions on our hands. i would first like to say that in no way do i think either of you are pussies. you are both very macho and verile. i am happy to hear that you are sevicing the wife clark, iπm sure you can produce many more hitler youths between you. what was once possibly a forum for true discussion has broken down into a measuring of manhood. i am sure that the two of you and michael savage can get together and show some left wing liberal sodomites what happens when they mess with true blooded americans. but wait, savage is a jew. is that ok with you two? having just finished watching cabaret, i am feeling slightly uneasy.

berlin, hell all of germany, was quite an interesting place before hitler and his crew took over(i base that on other info, not just on the film). not that nationalistc thugs could ever take over america, but isnπt it interesting that, just like the nazis, the right wing has made an issue out of the attack on american values posed by the left ( scaliaπs ≥homosexual agenda≤ comment comes to mind). now stay with me boys, cause hereπs where it gets tricky: intolerant christian conservatives pose a threat to everyone. as i have made a point of saying before, and dr. winters has reiterrated in his last email, true conservative thinkers do more than just rant and rave.

you want common ground jack, then how about this: bush is laying the ground work for an american empire. to tell you the truth, it was nearly complete before he got into office. you see, since we won the cold war, there is really no one else to challenge us. do you think this is the best way to protect american values?

a country that began by expelling an imperial regime (letπs face it, that is what britain was fast becoming) will now impose its own thoughts on others?

say what you will about the panthers, the brown berets, the red family. they were reactionaries who were defeated, but had they won, and they been in charge of the history books, would they have been different than paul reveere? the subjective nature of life is truly more difficult to grasp than either of you seem to realize. should mel gibson be silenced?

no, but in the face of intolerance on a daily basis, who could blame anyone for skewering someone whose agenda mirrors that of those who have oppressed for ages? the bottom line has to be this: how can we make life on earth more humane? killing, segregating, and ostracizing are not the answer.

joe

p.s. please think about what was just written before you respond. what do you stand for besides anger, revenge, and bravado?

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